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Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab (Read 4994 times)
muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #15 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 1:56pm
 
Here's one definition of the properties of life:

Conventional definition: The consensus is that life is a characteristic of organisms that exhibit all or most of the following phenomena:

Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
Organization: Being composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and chemotaxis.
Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.

On another forum, I made a case that Martian rocks were living, based on all those criteria. Reproduction was when a piece of rock fell off and was eroded to form part of another consolidated deposit.  Of course I wasn't serious  Grin
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muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #16 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 1:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 1:54pm:
Are cells, mitochondria, or penises a pre-requisite for life?


See my last post. With penises, you can be alive without one - you'd  just wish you were dead.  Cheesy
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #17 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:10pm
 
Quote:
On another forum, I made a case that Martian rocks were living, based on all those criteria. Reproduction was when a piece of rock fell off and was eroded to form part of another consolidated deposit.  Of course I wasn't serious


What about growth?

You make a good point about how 'wishy-washy' the definition is. It doesn't take us far enough away from 'you know it when you see it'. I also think that definition is far too specific on some issues. I would toss out any reference to cells, as it is concievable that alien life forms will not be cell based. They would still be organised, though organisation itself takes us back to 'you know it when you see it'. I suspect they put that in to reject viruses. I would also toss out homeostasis. A single celled organism could be considered alive even if it could only live in a stable environment identical to it's internal conditions. Again, this comes down to 'you'd know it if you saw it'. The smaller the organism, the more trivial this criteria. Response to stimili is unnecessary. If something satisfied the other conditions, including adaptation, it would also satisfy this one.

The only time I have tried to used a definition was in an argument about the Great Barrier Reef. I am sick of journalists saying it is the largest living organism on earth. That is like saying that a herd of cows is a living organism. I would include something about discretisation or irreducability. That is, if something is alive, you can break it down into single organisms, but breaking it down further kills it.

I would also include death, on an individual basis.
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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:15pm by freediver »  

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.
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tallowood
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #18 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:26pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 12:13pm:
It will not cause misunderstanding between the scientists because they will go by the detailed description of what really happened, not by broad claims and the definition of life. Misunderstanding by the general public is inevitable. The reality is not likely to be black and white, alive vs inanimate. A definition will not solve that problem, only cover up the complexity of reality. Getting the public in on the debate over whether they have created life is a good thing. Spoonfeeding the public broad generalisations is a bad thing. Telling them there are simple answers when there aren't is a bad thing. If the general public understood it all, it wouldn't be cutting edge research.



But how can scientists declare that artificial life form was created in a lab if they have different definitions of such event?

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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #19 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:31pm
 
Muso, thanks for the link, I will read it later tonight.

The definition of a life form you gave sounds reasonable except may be for the "exhibit all or most", that is a bit to vague for my liking.
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #20 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:08pm
 
Quote:
But how can scientists declare that artificial life form was created in a lab if they have different definitions of such event?


How can someone say something is good if there are different definitions for what is good?
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tallowood
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #21 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:23pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:08pm:
Quote:
But how can scientists declare that artificial life form was created in a lab if they have different definitions of such event?


How can someone say something is good if there are different definitions for what is good?


In fact many people argue about that, sometimes to the death. That's why scientist should be mindful about semantics ambiguity.
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muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #22 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:10pm:
Quote:
On another forum, I made a case that Martian rocks were living, based on all those criteria. Reproduction was when a piece of rock fell off and was eroded to form part of another consolidated deposit.  Of course I wasn't serious


What about growth?


Growth of sediment layers increases over time as the organism 'swallows' particles wafted in by the Martian wind and consolidates them to form new layers of skin. Mars is alive, I tell you  Cheesy
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #23 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:31pm
 
They are mindful of it. It's just that rather than getting hung up on a definition of life, the explain in detail what they actually did, and leave it up to others to decide whether it is life.
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muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #24 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:35pm
 
tallowood wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:23pm:
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:08pm:
Quote:
But how can scientists declare that artificial life form was created in a lab if they have different definitions of such event?


How can someone say something is good if there are different definitions for what is good?


In fact many people argue about that, sometimes to the death. That's why scientist should be mindful about semantics ambiguity.


There isn't a scientist alive who would claim to have created life or even claimed to have nearly created life. They leave that for the freshly fertilised minds of journos  Cheesy

Here's what the real Scientists had to say:

Self-Sustained Replication of an RNA Enzyme

An RNA enzyme that catalyzes the RNA-templated joining of RNA was converted to a format whereby two enzymes catalyze each other’s synthesis from a total of four oligonucleotide substrates. These cross-replicating RNA enzymes undergo self-sustained exponential amplification in the absence of proteins or other biological materials. Amplification occurs with a doubling time of about one hour, and can be continued indefinitely. Populations of various cross-replicating enzymes were constructed and allowed to compete for a common pool of substrates, during which recombinant replicators arose and grew to dominate the population. These replicating RNA enzymes can serve as an experimental model of a genetic system. Many such model systems could be constructed, allowing different selective outcomes to be related to the underlying properties of the genetic system.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just a tad different from the journalistic report, no?


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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #25 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:10pm
 
Here's an idea.

Why don't we go to Mars, and build some structures, wonders if you will, like stuff from the old days we have now we can't understand, and then go dump that RNA stuff all over Mars.

Eventually we might get intelligent life on there and they will spend all their time trying to work out the mysteries of the wonders and make secret societies and stuff.

And by the time they evolve in to intelligent life, we will totally be able to go visit other planets and stuff, this is billions of years away, so then we can be the aliens and go visit them and abduct them and stuff, just for fun, not to hurt them.

Because it is my idea I demand the rights to design the wonders to be placed on Mars.
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I am from a foreign government. This is not a joke. I am authorised to investigate state and federal bodies including ASIO.
 
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tallowood
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #26 - Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:28pm
 
freediver wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 3:31pm:
They are mindful of it. It's just that rather than getting hung up on a definition of life, the explain in detail what they actually did, and leave it up to others to decide whether it is life.


Then they should be ok as long as they don't claim anything that doesn't have unambiguous definition.

Muso's thing about Mars reminded me of Arthur Conan Doyle's personage the great misanthropic professor Challenger(?)
Professor Challenger who proved that the planet Earth was in fact living organism by drilling into the earth convinced that it is a sentient being and that by doing so he will be the first person to alert it to mankind's presence. He awakened the giant creature, which then destroyed his drill rig and caused earthquakes, tsunamis and volcano eruptions all over the place.
This professor was literally beating other professors into pulp over scientific definitions. What a great scientific mind he had.  Wink


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« Last Edit: Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:33pm by tallowood »  

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muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #27 - Jan 15th, 2009 at 7:53am
 
easel wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:10pm:
Here's an idea.

Why don't we go to Mars, and build some structures, wonders if you will, like stuff from the old days we have now we can't understand, and then go dump that RNA stuff all over Mars.


Mars is too dry and oxidising. In the recent Phoenix expedition, they even found magnesium perchlorate - not a very friendly environment.

Apart from being dry, it's very salty too, which high levels (up to 20% by mass) of calium and magnesium chlorides and bromides.
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muso
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #28 - Jan 15th, 2009 at 8:00am
 
tallowood wrote on Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:28pm:
.........Professor Challenger who proved that the planet Earth was in fact living organism by drilling into the earth convinced that it is a sentient being and that by doing so he will be the first person to alert it to mankind's presence. He awakened the giant creature, which then destroyed his drill rig and caused earthquakes, tsunamis and volcano eruptions all over the place.
This professor was literally beating other professors into pulp over scientific definitions. What a great scientific mind he had.  Wink



Reminds me of James Lovelock and his Gaia hypothesis. What a great thinker he is. He's 90 this year, and still working. He's also a great proponent of nuclear power, and usually stuns audiences when he says that they can make the nuclear waste dump in his backyard as long as he can use the waste heat for domestic purposes.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaia_Hypothesis
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Re: Life As We Know It Nearly Created in Lab
Reply #29 - Jan 15th, 2009 at 10:16am
 
Back in early 1950s Harold Urey and Stanley Miller used "spark and soup" to produce amino acids.
They passed mixtures of boiling water, ammonia, methane and hydrogen through "electric spark systems".

The media of the time described these as proof for the possibility of spontaneous generation of life on Earth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller-Urey_experiment

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