Australian Politics Forum - Taking Jews and Christians as friends

abu_rashid

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #45 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 8:58pm

Quote:

Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196

That thread has nothing to do with what we discussed here. You've completely confused issues to try and stitch together an argument where there really isn't one.

Quote:

What's your take on this point Abu?

As with disclipining a wife who is disobedient, yes it is allowed.

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Aussie

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #46 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 9:11pm

Not in Australia! Illegal!

Islam has just lost me as a sympathiser!

Bugger that, Abu. In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets. In this Country, Men do not hit Women, although it seems there is an increasing number of incidents where Women are physically attacking Men.

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We don't live in a Khilafah, we live in Australia, and Australia has certain values and systems.

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« Last Edit: Jan 27^th, 2009 at 9:21pm by Aussie »

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends Reply #47 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:16am Aussie, Quote: Bugger that, Abu. In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets. In this Country, Men do not hit Women Are you living in a cave or something? Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.
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Yadda

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #48 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:42am

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:16am:

Aussie,

Quote:

Bugger that, Abu. In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets. In this Country, Men do not hit Women

Are you living in a cave or something?

Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.

abu,

Yes, domestic violence is openly reported in the press in countries such as Australia.

I imagine that in places where the

shame

of reporting domestic violence is not tolerated, its occurance is probably much higher, being 'hidden' behind a 'veil' of silence?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gaybriel

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #49 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:20pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:16am:

Aussie,

Quote:

Bugger that, Abu. In this Country, we are taught to keep our male hands (of physical abuse) in our pockets. In this Country, Men do not hit Women

Are you living in a cave or something? Domestic violence by men against their wives certainly does exist in Australia.

yes but it's illegal. my understanding is that it is also forbidden in islam. is that your understanding abu?

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends Reply #50 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:23pm also what is the definition of beating when referring to the child/prayer issue?
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freediver

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #51 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 5:44pm

Quote:

That thread has nothing to do with what we discussed here. You've completely confused issues to try and stitch together an argument where there really isn't one.

Wrong. Here you go:

Gaybriel:

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we're not talking about slaves. we're talking about wives.

FD:

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Gaybriel the Islamic approach to love and amrriage is completely different to how we understand it

Abu:

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Nowhere did I promote anything like the concept he's claimed marriage in Islam is like.

FD:

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Did you not say that Islam rejects the concept of a man and woman falling in love before they get married?

Abu:

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Can you quote me saying it?

I never said Islam rejects such a concept.

FD:

Quote:

Here you go Abu:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225592196

Yadda wrote on Jan 25^th, 2009 at 12:38am:

Beat children who don't pray,
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/abudawud/002.sat.html#002....

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Islam has just lost me as a sympathiser!

Welcome to the club.

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yes but it's illegal. my understanding is that it is also forbidden in islam. is that your understanding abu?

He's just said it is OK to slap your wife in order to humiliate her into behaving herself, or to beat a child for not praying. Islam merely places what it sees as 'reasonable' limits on it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Gaybriel Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1191	Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends Reply #52 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 9:24pm where did he say it's ok to slap? can you quote?
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends Reply #53 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 9:32pm He knows I just said disclipinary smack, but unfortunately statements have no fixed meaning for fd, they just keep changing, as he keeps applying more of his spin.
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abu_rashid

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #54 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 9:37pm

freediver,

You've confused the issue of a man and his wife sharing a loving relationship (which obviously involves something much stronger than friendship, which proves Jews and Christians in fact CAN be friends of Muslims) with the issue of whether Islam encourages people to engage in pre-marital love relationships.

I personally, even before hearing what Islam was even about, knew quite well that the instant attraction people feel towards one another sometimes is not really love, it is infatuation. If you can't figure it out and understand this concept, then you've probably read a bit too much into sloppy romantic hollywood films.

Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship. Nice attempt to pass it over though...

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freediver

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #55 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 10:07pm

Quote:

where did he say it's ok to slap? can you quote?

Sure, there are plenty. Here is one:

Quote:

He knows I just said disclipinary smack, but unfortunately statements have no fixed meaning for fd, they just keep changing, as he keeps applying more of his spin.

A smack is a smack Abu. I did not misrepresent you at all. Here is what I said:

Quote:

He's just said it is OK to slap your wife in order to humiliate her into behaving herself

That is quite obviously disciplinary. And you conceded that the object of this domestic violence is humiliation of your 'partner'. It is not spin at all. You need to realise that the only spin going on here is you pretending that slapping your wife is OK if she misbehaves. It is not possible for us to put a bad spin on that. It is bad enough to begin with.

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If you can't figure it out and understand this concept, then you've probably read a bit too much into sloppy romantic hollywood films.

What makes you think I don't understand that? Apples are red, but not all red things are apples. Likewise, not all infatuation is love, but that doesn't rule out falling in love without first being married. In fact true love is more likely if people marry people they love rather than some naive hope of falling in love once they are married and performing sexual acts for some old man.

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Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship.

Sure, if procreation is involved.

Quote:

Either way, it's completely detached from the issue we're discussing here, which is that Muslims may take Jews and Christians in relationships that are even stronger than friendship. Nice attempt to pass it over though...

Are you accusing me of deflection? You are the one who brought up marriage Abu, not me. I just showed that it means nothing to the original question. You can't bring up marriage as 'proof' that Muslims can take non-Muslims as friends and not expect others to point out the loveless concept of Islamic marriage.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #56 - Jan 29^th, 2009 at 4:32am

Quote:

In fact true love is more likely if people marry people they love

Yeh that's why Western countries have the highest rate of divorce in the world, good one fd.

After a coupla years the infatuation wears off, and then they realise they can't make it work.

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Sure, if procreation is involved.

Sorry, you've lost me here.

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You are the one who brought up marriage Abu, not me

I brought it up, because of it's relevance, you merely latched onto it, as you thought it to be an oppotune time to link it to another misconception you have about Islam (ie. that Islam calls for loveless marriages).

Quote:

and not expect others to point out the loveless concept of Islamic marriage.

And herein lies the source of your problems in understanding the situation. Nowhere have I stated the Islamic concept of marriage is loveless, you've begun believing your own spin mate.

The Islamic concept of marriage is much more loving than the Western one in my opinion, as it is about a true spiritual bond, and a love that goes beyond the shallow infatuation that a lot of Western relationships seem to be based upon (hence the high divorce rates, and much lower marriage rates, which indicates most relationships don't even make it to marriage, let alone divorce).

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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends Reply #57 - Jan 29^th, 2009 at 8:14am Marrying someone whilst you are 'in love' with them is like making the biggest decision of your life whilst your drunk. This explains why so many marriages in Australia end in divorce...1 in 3.
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freediver

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #58 - Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:07am

Quote:

I brought it up, because of it's relevance, you merely latched onto it, as you thought it to be an oppotune time to link it to another misconception you have about Islam

No Abu, I responded because I thought the point I made was relevant, just like you. You should stop assuming that other people's only motive is to decieve. It is naive to think that the Islamic approach tends to lead more often to genuine love, given that it is so heavily propped up by concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms.

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« Last Edit: Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:43pm by abu_rashid »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Lestat

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Re: Taking Jews and Christians as friends
Reply #59 - Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:46am

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:07am:

No Abu, I responded because I thought the point I made was relevant, just like you.

Alas, the point you raised was irrelevent, just like you. Irrelevant.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:07am:

You should stop assuming that other people's only motive is to decieve.

In your case Freediver, its a fairly safe assumption to make.

freediver wrote on Jan 29^th, 2009 at 9:07am:

It is naive to think that the Islamic approach tends to lead more often to genuine love, given that it is so heavily propped up by concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms.

This is just nonsense, and you have absolutely nothing to back it up, besides your bigotted pre-concieved ideas.

Fact is far more western marriages end in divorce then muslim marriages, even in Australia, where these apparent concepts of servitude and denial of basic freedoms are almost non-existence.

Once again, a quck look at the facts can quite easily discredit your lies.

Why don't you add this to your wiki...along with all the other lies. Then you can try spamming it on other sites, and people can laugh at you.

All that spamming, and you still have what....5-6 regular posters here. plenty have come and gone.

Do you ever wonder why? Cheesy

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