Calanen wrote on Feb 8^th, 2009 at 6:38pm:



Hence the chants of 'we was robbed' over Spain... I'm sorry... Andalus, even 500 years later.

And dare I say it , hence thee bloodyminded 'anything but peace' stance on the wassisname, Jewdea. No, Israel. Once Ottoman, always Islamic. On second thouights, I'd better daren't.

As in most of these kinds of debates, the truth is somewhere between these two extremes

They are considered people who had a divinely revealed book. Their food is considered halal (if prepared according to their own books requirements) and the chaste women from amongst them are considered suitable marriage partners. And under Shari'ah law they are given special recognition, with courts that implement their religious rules. This validates their religion to an extent and indicates they are indeed considered to be believers in some context.

But they are not considered believers on the same level as Muslims. They are considered wayward believers who've just begun following tradition, instead of clear proofs.

Come on Yadda, he has as much right to believe in his fairy tale, as you do for yours, and seeking to challenge individual beliefs, will never change anyones mind.

As an Atheist, I am continually amazed at the depth of passion that believers feel for their individual deities, but when I see people trying to convince others to adopt their beliefs, I do despair a little for the whole concept of religious freedom, which is most thoroughly transgressed by the truest believers.

So if you try and contain your arguments to matters of social cohesion, rather than whose god is the best, then we can have a meaningful dialogue.

Yadda,

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Actually the word translated as "dislike" is stronger, it is "hate it". This indicates that the Muslims were not the war-mongering bunch you'd like to portray them as, and God knew they would hate to fight. This verse was revealed because they were being threatened by an army, in a sacred month, and so it was revealed that they must fight to defend themselves.

Note: Your 'additions' were removed. If you were honest, and the Qur'an was as self-incriminating as you make out, then there'd be no need to add your own annotations into the text, hinting to the unwary that they are actually part of the text, or that they provide some kind of authentic context to the verse quoted.

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Is it really any different from the Western concept of "God & Country"?

The real American meaning of GOD AND COUNTRY should be: “A nation of patriotic citizens who dedicate themselves to protecting and defending ‘America the Beautiful’ and our basic human freedoms from tyranny and oppression, as well as showing our love and respect for God by protecting and defending all Creation.” (http://www.godandcountry.org)

Just change the word America to Islamic and you've got much the same as the hadith above. It really isn't the sensationalist hype you'd like to make it out to be.

Those things are relative.

I consider Islam to establish freedom, justice and prosperity.

You consider your system to...

Likewise Communists considered their system to..

As do Anarchists, Mormons etc.

Justice is one of the major concepts in Islam, as is fighting against tyranny. عادل (adil, 'the just') is a very famous muslim name, and is also one of the 99 names of God. All you can really claim is Muslims have a different vision of justice to you, and I'd agree. I think lots of things in Secular societies are not just at all. You might for instance believe George Bush's operation "Infinite justice", ie. the killing tens of thousands of innocent civilians was justice, I don't.

It's certainly not a recent claim that Islam is based on justice, that's only been invented to respond to you.

From the hadith:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: “There are seven categories of people whom God will shelter under His shade on the Day when there will be no shade except His.  [One is] the just leader.”(Saheeh Muslim)

And God said: “O My worshippers, I have forbidden injustice for Myself and forbade it also for you.  So avoid being unjust to one another.” (Saheeh Muslim)

And in the Qur'an:

“God commands justice and fair dealing...” (Quran 16:90)

“O you who believe, be upright for God, and (be) bearers of witness with justice!...” (Quran 5:8)

“We sent Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Measure in order to establish justice among the people…” (Quran 57:25)

“O you who believe!  Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even if it be against yourselves, your parents, and your relatives, or whether it is against the rich or the poor...” (Quran 4:135)

“Let not the hatred of a people swerve you away from justice.  Be just, for this is closest to righteousness…” (Quran 5:8)

“God does not forbid you from doing good and being just to those who have neither fought you over your faith nor evicted you from your homes...” (Quran 60:8)

“…If you judge, judge between them with justice…” (Quran 5:42)

“…Say: I believe in the Scripture, which God has sent down, and I am commanded to judge justly between you...” (Quran 42:15)

“And the Word of your Lord has been fulfilled in truth and in justice. None can change His Words.” (Quran 6:115)

“God commands you to render trusts to whom they are due, and when you judge between people, judge with justice…” (Quran 4:58)

“…Be just, for it is closest to God-consciousness…” (Quran 5:8)

“…When you speak, speak with justice, even if it is against someone close to you…” (Quran 6:152)

And here is an excellent statement which sums up the Western ignorance of Islam, and hypocrisy of their dealings with the Muslims:

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How true that is.

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No. I can claim that Islam denies people justice. It considers the testimony of non-Muslims to be inferior. And before you bring up your common deceptions thread - all it contains on the issue is a strawman. All the quotes you can pull from the Koran about how wonderful justice is will not change this.

abu_rashid wrote on Feb 17^th, 2009 at 4:54pm:


Perhaps now you'll see why people ask Muslims what Islam is about, rather than trying to figure it out themselves with google. Same with Mormonism.