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Nuclear the 'only viable clean power' (Read 20569 times)
muso
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Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Jan 17th, 2009 at 9:28am
 
http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,24920991-5003402,00.html

Quote:
AUSTRALIA will probably have to go nuclear to tackle climate change, engineers and scientists say.

They say nuclear power is the only reliable, proven source of electricity with a minimal carbon footprint.

They're tipping 15 per cent of the country's electricity will come from nuclear reactors by 2050.

And the first plant could swing into action just 10 years after approval is given.

The Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering, which represents more than 700 experts, has issued a report calling for nuclear power to be on the table.



From that respect, the Libs had it right. I still think we need to investigate all clean energy options.
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Calanen
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #1 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:40am
 
Australia has more sunlight than it knows what it do with. Can you even imagine how much energy is generated by the heat in the desert? If we wanted to, we could have huge fields of solar panels and hook it up to all major cities. Forget about nukes, we dont need them.

Loss of power over distance is no more than 10 per cent.

Have a look at this

http://www.desertknowledge.com.au/dka/index.cfm?attributes.fuseaction=pre_stdf

Also below is from Wiki about power loss over distances.

I'd like to see everyone in Australia have a solar power generator, connected as an enormous grid.

But then, the state doesnt have as much control over energy, does it?

Quote:
Losses

Transmitting electricity at high voltage reduces the fraction of energy lost to Joule heating. For a given amount of power, a higher voltage reduces the current and thus the resistive losses in the conductor. For example, raising the voltage by a factor of 10 reduces the current by a corresponding factor of 10 and therefore the  losses by a factor of 100, provided the same sized conductors are used in both cases. Even if the conductor size is reduced x10 to match the lower current the  losses are still reduced x10. Long distance transmission is typically done with overhead lines at voltages of 115 to 1,200 kV. At extremely high voltages, more than 2,000 kV between conductor and ground, corona discharge losses are so large that they can offset the lower resistance loss in the line conductors.

Transmission and distribution losses in the USA were estimated at 7.2% in 1995 [2], and in the UK at 7.4% in 1998. [3]

As of 1980, the longest cost-effective distance for electricity was 4,000 miles (7,000 km), although all present transmission lines are considerably shorter. (see Present Limits of High-Voltage Transmission)

In an alternating current circuit, the inductance and capacitance of the phase conductors can be significant. The currents that flow in these components of the circuit impedance constitute reactive power, which transmits no energy to the load. Reactive current flow causes extra losses in the transmission circuit. The ratio of real power (transmitted to the load) to apparent power is the power factor. As reactive current increases, the reactive power increases and the power factor decreases. For systems with low power factors, losses are higher than for systems with high power factors. Utilities add capacitor banks and other components throughout the system — such as phase-shifting transformers, static VAR compensators, physical transposition of the phase conductors, and flexible AC transmission systems (FACTS) — to control reactive power flow for reduction of losses and stabilization of system voltage.
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mantra
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #2 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:44am
 
Quote:
The Australian Academy of Technological Sciences and Engineering, which represents more than 700 experts, has issued a report calling for nuclear power to be on the table.


Quote:
From that respect, the Libs had it right.


Yes sure they did.  Nuclear power isn't clean.  Interesting to see some on the fellowship list of ATSE - Directors of BHP and one of the submissions include the Garnaut report.  All looks a bit contradictory.

Australia can't afford nuclear power - it's not justified and there is conclusive evidence that it isn't safe.  These new reactors - stage ? - whatever they are - aren't even off the drawing board and it will be decades before they will be viable - if ever.

The majority of Australians don't want nuclear power either and if Rudd even considers it - he should be turfed out.  But then again - maybe he hasn't a choice - after all the former government had, with the help of the US nuclear waste industry, picked out some choice sites in the NT for a dump, the Ghan Railway is up and running for easy transport to the tip - thanks to Haliburton - and prior to Rudd being elected, didn't we become members of GNEP?

http://www.atse.org.au/index.php?sectionid=745
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« Last Edit: Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:50am by mantra »  
 
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Calanen
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #3 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:48am
 
http://www.aussiesolar.com.au/html/grid_feed_systems.php

Have a look at this product. You buy solar panels, and you sell electricity onto the grid that you don't use. That is if you generate more than you need, it goes onto the grid and discounts your bill.

As for nuclear power being safe, it absolutely is. What isnt safe is the waste, but they can be stored safely.

What happened in Chernobyl was appalling negligence, it is not an example of nuclear power being unsafe, no more than someone driving a truck into a crowded shopping centre would be an example of trucks being inherently unsafe.

Terrorism is also a worry with nuclear power, in that perhaps a group of Aloha Snackbar people take over a reactor, and tell the scientists to make it go critical at gunpoint. Or they learn how to do so themselves after taking it over.  Flying a plane into a nuclear power station would do nothng however.

Nuclear power makes no sense for Australia, not now, not ever. Solar is the way for us to go.
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mantra
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #4 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:53am
 
Quote:
Nuclear power makes no sense for Australia, not now, not ever. Solar is the way for us to go.


Agreed.

And as far as NP being safe - you might be looking statistically at the actual power stations in use today - but if you look at the process from start to go - mining to dismantling the old stations, which only have a short life span - there is nothing safe about NP.
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muso
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #5 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 1:38pm
 
Calanen wrote on Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:48am:
http://www.aussiesolar.com.au/html/grid_feed_systems.php

Have a look at this product. You buy solar panels, and you sell electricity onto the grid that you don't use. That is if you generate more than you need, it goes onto the grid and discounts your bill.

As for nuclear power being safe, it absolutely is. What isnt safe is the waste, but they can be stored safely.

What happened in Chernobyl was appalling negligence, it is not an example of nuclear power being unsafe, no more than someone driving a truck into a crowded shopping centre would be an example of trucks being inherently unsafe.

Terrorism is also a worry with nuclear power, in that perhaps a group of Aloha Snackbar people take over a reactor, and tell the scientists to make it go critical at gunpoint. Or they learn how to do so themselves after taking it over.  Flying a plane into a nuclear power station would do nothng however.

Nuclear power makes no sense for Australia, not now, not ever. Solar is the way for us to go.


Each Unit of electricity generated by PV Solar panel costs about 5 times as much as a unit generated by a large centralised solar thermal power station.

Solar panels (as opposed to solar hot water) doesn't make much economic or environmental sense. Apart from anything else the demand for silicon has pushed the price up through the roof.

As far as nuclear fission is concerned, we just have to look at the history. Compare how many people have been killed or seriously injured against coal fired. Coal fired generation produces more radioactive waste than nuclear and is seriously messing up the
planet to the extent that we might see massive casualties.

Even taking Chernobyl as the worst possible accident (in a design that will never be produced again), what is the area nowadays? Europe's most successful wildlife reserve.

Apart from Chernobyl we had a meltdown at 3 mile Island - How many deaths and injuries? - zero.

Go with pebble bed reactors or better, thorium based reactors and they become virtually fail-safe.

The Australian Population won't accept nuclear power because they don't understand it, and they certainly don't understand the implications of global warming.  
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Grendel
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #6 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 5:14pm
 
lol
Pebble bed reactors and Thorium reactors...  dear its just like listening to myself a few years ago.

Yes i'd suggest wait for the thorium reactors to come online or at the worst use pebble bed technology now.

THorium would be better though.

be nice if a government looked ahead for a change
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #7 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 9:00pm
 
Well I am with you Mantra, I have never heard of a nuclear facility that runs as a viable, cost effective energy producing system.
I have been told that all of them in commercial use, rely on government subsidies to make them viable.

So strike one, they cost us money.

What about the waste?

Have there been some revolutionary breakthroughs in containing and storing nuclear waste, that I have not heard of?

I find it to be the absolute pinnacle of humanities' hubris, to think we can safely store and handle a dangerous product, for a period of time, exponentially greater than that which any civilisation has lasted for.
Strike Two, the waste byproducts are deadly, for a period of time, greater than we can realistically plan for.

Next we have the issue of security. With the growing proliferation, and normalisation of nuclear energy, at the same time as we see a similiarly expanding number of groups with the desire, and capabilities to misuse nuclear material, we need to question just what security measures would be prudent, and what would it cost?
So we would need to guard nuclear material to prevent it falling into the wrong hands, and with the rest of us footing the bill.

Strike Three, Security Issues.

So as far as I am concerned, until they get these issues sorted out, I will not be supporting nuclear power use in australia.
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #8 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 9:14pm
 
I am unconvinced of nuclear power. It certainly should be on the table as an option.
Perhaps as part of the solution?

As far as I am aware, nuclear stations are expensive to build, expensive to run, have a limited life, VERY expensive to shut down, expensive to get rid of the waste.
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muso
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #9 - Jan 17th, 2009 at 10:23pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 17th, 2009 at 9:00pm:
Well I am with you Mantra, I have never heard of a nuclear facility that runs as a viable, cost effective energy producing system.
I have been told that all of them in commercial use, rely on government subsidies to make them viable.


Here you can read about nuclear power generation that works well and is taxed more than alternatives.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/inf42.html

If we're talking cost effective, we need to use real economics that looks at the total overall environmental damage.

http://www.abc.net.au/worldtoday/content/2006/s1776868.htm

Quote:
ELEANOR HALL: The most comprehensive review ever carried out on the financial cost of global warming has found that climate change could not only devastate the environment and cause mass migration but could cut the world's annual economic growth by 20 per cent.

The report by UK economist, Sir Nicholas Stern, and commissioned by the British Government is to be released in London tonight.

It calculates that the total global cost of climate change could run to $9 trillion and it warns there is only a small window of 10 to 15 years to address the problem, as Environment Reporter Sarah Clarke reports.


If you want expensive over the 100 year time frame, just go on generating electricity from coal.
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Calanen
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #10 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 8:56am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jan 17th, 2009 at 9:14pm:
I am unconvinced of nuclear power. It certainly should be on the table as an option.
Perhaps as part of the solution?

As far as I am aware, nuclear stations are expensive to build, expensive to run, have a limited life, VERY expensive to shut down, expensive to get rid of the waste.


If you have massive amounts of people, like in Russia, China, Europe, they make sense. But in a sparsely population place like Australia, they are ridiculous.

Solar power people. It's the way to go.
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #11 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 9:06am
 
Quote:
Each Unit of electricity generated by PV Solar panel costs about 5 times as much as a unit generated by a large centralised solar thermal power station.


I absolutely agree with that - the question is - will the state go against so much vested interest to make a huge solar power station? I doubt it.

Have a look at this:

http://www.ornl.gov/sci/scale/pubs/SOL-05-1048_1.pdf

It's a proposal for a high temperature thermal solar power tower, that will crack the 50% efficiency for energy production.
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #12 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 11:45am
 
I expect geothermal power will come online well before 2050 and then nuclear won't be necessry. For base load supply, it is the only viable alternative to nuclear, so if it doesn't work out we will probably go with nuclear.

Solar cells are a really bad idea. They are one of the most expensive options around. They are only being considered because of the handout factor, ie buying votes. Putting them on individual roofs just makes them even more expensive.
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #13 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 12:10pm
 
Ah yes another of my favourites from a few years ago...  Australia is ideally suited...  just google HOT ROCKS

Hey Mozz...  you heard me discuss all these alternatives a few years ago on cracker...  how soon we forget.  Sad
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Re: Nuclear the 'only viable clean power'
Reply #14 - Jan 18th, 2009 at 1:17pm
 
Well if I don't agree, I guess it must mean I have forgotten. Roll Eyes

While I respect the theory of "hot rocks" power, I am not holding my breath in the expectation of seeing it widely used in my lifetime, Solar on the other hand, is available here, and now, and will be installed on a roof, above me, quite soon. Wink

So while the arguments on cost per unit, etc. are perfectly valid, the fact is, that solar is available now, it is reducing our coal usage and reliance, now, and it has the bonus of making our daily power usage habits a part of our everyday consciousness, now.

Of course, some aspects of Nuclear power, make some sense, in some locations, sometimes.
But the problem of waste control is a hurdle, still not cleared, despite having been worked on for over half a century, with very little real progress towards providing the safe, long term solution, needed, before it could allow us to embrace nuclear, as a truly environmentally friendly alternative.

So, unless that particular aspect is addressed, I will vehemently oppose Nuclear power usage in Australia.
I think we have a responsibility to future generations, to not leave them a legacy of highly poisonous waste dumps to try and cope with.
Every power spree of quarter of a century of nuclear power, will leave a bill that an unknown number of future generations will be forced to keep paying for, and that is grossly unfair.
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