Australian Politics Forum - choice and responsibility in Palestine

freediver

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choice and responsibility in Palestine
Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am

When Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, the Isaraelis had no choice but to defend themselves. When the Palestinian people elected a government whose foreign policy included the destruction of Israel, the Israeli people had no choice but to try to undermine their ability to do so. The Israeli people chose to minimise their own suffering as best they could. Whatever grievances the Palestinians have, they did not have to fire rockets into Israel. They chose to. Hamas chose to initiate yet another futile war that would only bring harm upon the people they were charged with protecting. Whatever suffering they have endured, they chose to compound that suffering. The immediate consequences of their actions were forseeable and inevitable, yet they chose that path regardless. They continue to choose to compound their suffering.

If Hamas love death so much, why do they complain so bitterly about it?

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locutius

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #1 - Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:07pm

FD. All sounds pretty logical to me.

I was amused at some of the spin that says it was a victory for Hamas, if by that it means maintaining the status quo and ensuring the next wave of recruits then obviously mission accomplished. If it means they beat the Isreali war machine then no, not even close. THe self restraint of the Isreali's is probably unprecidented in modern warfare.

Seriously, a fully unleashed Isreali military would leave hundreds of thousands dead and the Palestinian's without a foothold.

I do believe that the Isrealis are far from blameless for this situation, but talking sensibly diplomatically to Palestinians has been pretty scarce on the ground over the years, because even when they can get to talk to a moderate, there is an well funded known to the public extremist in the wings waiting to blow up a bus.

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« Last Edit: Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:14pm by locutius »

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Lestat

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #2 - Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:43pm

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

When Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, the Isaraelis had no choice but to defend themselves.

Once again, you have your chronology all wrong. Israel invaded, occupied and stole Palestinian land long before Hamas was even formed. 60 years of persecution, suffering and oppression at the hands of Israeli aggression, and Hamas was born out of this environment.

It is Hamas and the Palestinians that are defending themselves, against Israeli aggression.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

When the Palestinian people elected a government whose foreign policy included the destruction of Israel, the Israeli people had no choice but to try to undermine their ability to do so.

They have a choice alright...how bout demanding that their government cease the decades long occupation of Palestine..and the continuous persecution of the Israeli people.

how bout they retreat to the Res 242 defined borders?

Perhaps if they had done this, Hamas would not have been voted...in fact they may not even of existed.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

The Israeli people chose to minimise their own suffering as best they could.

By maximising the suffering on the Palestinians. It is ludicrous that you are equating the suffering experienced by the Palestinians to that of the Israeli's.

Palestine has had to put up with 60 years and theft, forced removals, bulldozed homes, destroyed agrgiculure and livestock, humiliating checkpoints, murdered civlians and blockades aimed at starvation.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Whatever grievances the Palestinians have, they did not have to fire rockets into Israel. They chose to.

What...do you acknowledge that the Palestinians have grievances? Could of fooled me.

And tell me fd, what do you suggest they do? Peaceful protest? Nothing? They tried that for 40 years and the world did nothing..whilst they suffering in silence.

No doubt you yearn for those good old days once again...when those pesky Palestinians suffered and died in silence.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Hamas chose to initiate yet another futile war that would only bring harm upon the people they were charged with protecting.

This lie has been exposed time and time again yet you still repeat it.

Hamas for 6 months respected a cease fire agreement. As a part of that agreement, Israel was to lift its blockade of Gaza. Something it did not do. So from day one it was Israel who was in violation of the cease fire, not Hamas.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Whatever suffering they have endured, they chose to compound that suffering.

Oh...how nice of you to 'acknowledge' their suffering. Now what do you suggest should be done about it.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

The immediate consequences of their actions were forseeable and inevitable, yet they chose that path regardless. They continue to choose to compound their suffering.

As opposed to do nothing and starve to death whilst the world stood by and did nothing.

Or did you forget the blockade of Gaza...Israels punishment of the Palestinian people for excercising what you believe is their, to freely elect the government of their choosing.

The If Hamas love death so much, why do they complain so bitterly about it? [/quote]

They don't love death. They are resisting the persecution and oppression of an arparthied government.

Why do you love the oppression of the Palestinian people so much. Why do you defend Israel's right to persecute a weak and defenseless people?

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Lestat

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #3 - Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:51pm

locutius wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 12:07pm:

FD. All sounds pretty logical to me.

I was amused at some of the spin that says it was a victory for Hamas, if by that it means maintaining the status quo and ensuring the next wave of recruits then obviously mission accomplished. If it means they beat the Isreali war machine then no, not even close. THe self restraint of the Isreali's is probably unprecidented in modern warfare.

I'm surprised that you don't seem able to, or unwilling to understand that 'victory' in wars is made up of more then 'how many people were killed from the other side.

it is about achieving military and political goals. Of which Israel achieved none. I have posted a link written by a pro-zionist jew explaining as much.

Yet you still insist on sticking your head in the sand and parrotting word for word the same zionist lies.

And you have the nerve to say that Israel showed restraint? Gee...over 50% of the casulties were innocent civilians...many of them children...use of illegal weapons which have some at the UN speaking of war crimes.

Numerous leaders all over the world has stated that the Israeli response was 'disproportionate'...and here you are, having the nerve to say that Israel showed 'restrained'.

Whats wrong locuitus...didn't you see enough arab children killed? Were you hoping for more?

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freediver

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #4 - Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:05pm

Quote:

Once again, you have your chronology all wrong. Israel invaded, occupied and stole Palestinian land long before Hamas was even formed. 60 years of persecution, suffering and oppression at the hands of Israeli aggression, and Hamas was born out of this environment.

It is Hamas and the Palestinians that are defending themselves, against Israeli aggression.

Lestat, that war finished. The Palestinians lost. Firing rockets is not some inevitable consequence of it. They chose to restart hostilities.

The chronology is not wrong. This is about the choices people make, not chronology.

Quote:

By maximising the suffering on the Palestinians.

Lestat they did not maximise the suffering of the Palestinians. By the standards of warfare, they are remarkably restrained. The only people trying to maximise the suffering of the Palestinians is Hamas. I don't think they could create more suffering if they tried. But only a total lack of comprehension of the situation would lead someone to think that the Israelis could not make them suffer far more.

Quote:

It is ludicrous that you are equating the suffering experienced by the Palestinians to that of the Israeli's.

That is not what I am doing Lestat. I am pointing out that the Israelis avoid suffering to the best of their ability, while the Palestinians try to bring more suffering upon themselves. The outcome reflects this. The Israelis get by remarkably well, given the situation they are in, while for the Palestinians in Gaza things just keep going from bad to worse.

Quote:

Hamas for 6 months respected a cease fire agreement. As a part of that agreement, Israel was to lift its blockade of Gaza. Something it did not do. So from day one it was Israel who was in violation of the cease fire, not Hamas.

They still had a choice. They chose to bring even more suffering upon themselves. They chose to make the palestinian people suffer more, even though it achieved nothing for them. They chose more futile deaths.

Quote:

Oh...how nice of you to 'acknowledge' their suffering. Now what do you suggest should be done about it.

For starters, I suggest they stop compounding it. This strategy of making themselves suffer as much as possible in the hope that some outside force rides in and rescues them has failed. They need to try a new strategy. If you keep doing what you have always done, you will get what you always got.

Quote:

Or did you forget the blockade of Gaza...Israels punishment of the Palestinian people for excercising what you believe is their, to freely elect the government of their choosing.

Of course they are free to do so, but if they install a government whose foreign policy is the destruction of Israel, they will inevitably suffer as a consequence. Democracy is not some kind of break in the chain of causality. Your actions still have consequences, even if you voted for them. Voting for war brings war. That vote is a choice, made by the Palestinian people, that resulted in more suffering for them.

Quote:

They don't love death.

They claim to often enough. "We love death more than the Israelis love life." Their actions certainly seem to imply that they love death. Yet they still complain about it.

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freediver

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #5 - Jan 21^st, 2009 at 1:13pm

There is a common law legal concept that I think reflects this. It basically says that the victim can claim damages inflicted by the perpetrator, but not for any extra damages. That is, it is still the responsibility of the victim to minimise the damages. They cannot try to maximise their suffering to increase the punishment for the perpetrator. This reflects responsiblity for choice. The perpetrator is responsible for the choices they made and the normal consequences. The victim is likewise responsbile for the choices they make and the normal consequences. In other words, being a victim does not absolve you of responsibility for the choices you make. There is no point in prolonging or compounding your suffering. If you do, you are the one who is held responsible for all that extra suffering.

Obviously, in a state of war, no-one is going to be holding anyone responsible in a legal sense. But there is still a moral responsibility.

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Kytro

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #6 - Jan 24^th, 2009 at 10:51am

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

When Hamas started firing rockets into Israel, the Isaraelis had no choice but to defend themselves.

That is not true, but it is reasonable for them to defend themselves, as it is for anyone.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

When the Palestinian people elected a government whose foreign policy included the destruction of Israel, the Israeli people had no choice but to try to undermine their ability to do so. The Israeli people chose to minimise their own suffering as best they could. Whatever grievances the Palestinians have, they did not have to fire rockets into Israel. They chose to. Hamas chose to initiate yet another futile war that would only bring harm upon the people they were charged with protecting.

One could argue who fired the first shot forever. The Israelis killed someone, but they were building a tunnel etc...

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Whatever suffering they have endured, they chose to compound that suffering. The immediate consequences of their actions were forseeable and inevitable, yet they chose that path regardless. They continue to choose to compound their suffering.

Actually a few militants did that, not everyone. I'm sorry bombing entire compounds with civillians because one guy is firing from it is completely ridiculous and indefensible.

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

If Hamas love death so much, why do they complain so bitterly about it?

For the political side, it is good propaganda.

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Yadda

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #7 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 2:42am

Kytro wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 10:51am:

freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

Whatever suffering they have endured, they chose to compound that suffering. The immediate consequences of their actions were forseeable and inevitable, yet they chose that path regardless. They continue to choose to compound their suffering.

Actually a few militants did that, not everyone. I'm sorry bombing entire compounds with civillians because one guy is firing from it is completely ridiculous and indefensible.

Kytro,

Actually, to the Jihadists, it seems it depends on who is doing the killing, and on who the victims are.....

There Can Be No End to Jihad'

Islamist Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammad, in an exclusive interview, discusses the rationale for 9/11, the Christians he most respects, and the Jesus he defends.
posted 11/05/2007
....Any weapons are legitimate in jihad. Even animals may be used as "suicide bombers"! It is not restricted by target—even Muslims or children, if used by the enemy as human shields, can be killed.
....Killing women and children never was and never will be part of the jihad in Islam, whether that be the women or children of the Muslims or non-Muslims. So if Chechen mujahedeen killed women and children in Beslan, I would condemn it. The children of non-Muslims, such as those at Beslan, who die in such circumstances go to Paradise.
....Women and children [i.e. boys under 15] or Muslims are not legitimate targets—nor are any noncombatants [clergy, disabled, insane, elderly, etc.]. Not even Israeli children or women, unless they serve in the military, which most do, or live in properties taken from dispossessed Palestinians (Muslim or Christian), which virtually all do.
However, if children are killed, the fault lies with the adult occupiers who brought them into a battlefield situation.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2005/februaryweb-only/22.0.html

So here [above], we have a muslim declare that when Jihadists kill non-muslims [especially women and children], it is the fault of the non-muslims for, "bringing them into a battlefield situation."

But when Hamas hides behind civilians [and attacks non-muslim combatants], and those civilians [used as shields] are killed, it is the fault of the non-muslims.

So the Jihadist/ISLAM/muslim position is,

"Heads i win, tails you lose."

Surprise, surprise!

But sorry, wars don't respect ISLAMIC 'rules' such as those.
i.e.
When muslims win wars, they are mighty, warriors of ISLAM.
When muslims lose wars, they are innocent 'victims' of conflict.

Sure.
/sarc off

Q.
Quote:

If Hamas love death so much, why do they complain so bitterly about it?

A.

Because Hamas/Hezbollah/ISLAMISTS are all

HYPOCRITES

!

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Swathe

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #8 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 7:40am

I'm no fan of the Palestinians but after all, their country was taken from them sand given to another people. Many a conflict is borne from the frustrations of the oppressed, and the Israelis over extend their "power". they have been cited byt the UN multiple times for this behavior, but when their pal hold veto power, they have little to worry about.

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freediver

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Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine
Reply #9 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 9:45am

Quote:

That is not true, but it is reasonable for them to defend themselves, as it is for anyone.

What alternatives did they have?

Quote:

Actually a few militants did that, not everyone.

The majority voted in a party whose foreign policy was based around the destruction of Israel. What else were they expecting?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38465 Gender:	Re: choice and responsibility in Palestine Reply #10 - Jan 25^th, 2009 at 5:06pm Wishful thinking, but totally justified.
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