Australian Politics Forum - muslim men allowed to rape wives

mantra

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #15 - Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 7:57pm

This is one area I don't like about Islam. There could be nothing worse than being a Muslim woman. You are such second class citizens - not to all Muslim men - but to many of them.

If I was hit with a toothbrush and had to stand there and take it - I would consider myself oppressed. The same goes for sex. That idiot that made the news today might only be one of a few that believe this, although I find it unlikely especially as the Koran condones men hitting their wives and having sex when they please.

I know Australia is not a Muslim country - but I was watching a documentary the other day about Muslim women in Afghanistan and their lives are terrible. It seems that many of the women don't like the men and who could blame them. One woman giggled when the reporter joked with her and she was immediately told to control herself by some man in an office. Her embarrassment, frustration and feelings of futility were so obvious.

The females in Muslim countries have my pity.

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Calanen Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2241	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #16 - Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:09pm Quote: you can see he says the hitting is to the extent of hitting with a toothbrush - it cannot leave a mark or make someone bleed. it is also a very last result after much much consultation. Well I guess that makes it ok then. Pardon us overly concerned westerners.
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abu_rashid

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #17 - Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 10:29pm

sprint,

Perhaps you should read your Bible a little more often, and not just the fuzzy wuzzy cuddly bits that get the most airtime.

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

Note: this is NT not OT, so don't give me any of this "It's from the OT we don't believe in that anymore" crap.

Also if we look at this map of which countries have laws regarding 'spousal rape', you'll see quite a lot of Christian countries there don't recognise it.

Also note that the UK didn't have a law for spousal rape until 1991.

Spousal rape is also considered to be quite common in the US, although it's outlawed there, but this has only been the case since 1993, and even today 33 of the 50 US states treat spousal rape as a 'lesser crime', not as rape:

Quote:

David Finkelhor and Kersti Yllo's 1985 study estimated that 10 to 14 per cent of all married American women have been or will be raped by their husbands. (Finkelhor and Yllo, 1985)

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abu_rashid

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #18 - Jan 22^nd, 2009 at 11:42pm

Mantra,

Quote:

This is one area I don't like about Islam. There could be nothing worse than being a Muslim woman.

Strangely Muslim women don't agree with this sentiment. There's no doubting some Muslim women are oppressed and treated poorly, then again so are some Christian women (as mentioned above, 10-14% of them are raped by their own husbands in some countries) and some Hindu women and some Chinese women etc. The issue seems to be that oppressiion of Muslim women just makes better headlines, but the fact is the majority do not live like we see in the documentaries from Afghanistan. For a start, the largest Muslim nation in the world is Indonesia, and you'd be hard pressed to find any Indonesian women living like that. Also surveys of Muslim women pretty much always show that they don't consider themselves oppressed. Unless we don't consider their opinions valid? In which case we'd be just as demeaning and belittling of them as we accuse others of being. Please see this thread which I've started in the Islamic forum that mentions a survey carried out on Muslim women from all around the world.

Quote:

If I was hit with a toothbrush and had to stand there and take it - I would consider myself oppressed

Is that because of the humliation? Islam does consider a woman to be under the charge of her husband, much as the children are under both their charges. So the husband is permitted to 'smack' his wife in order to disclipine her (as a child would be smacked for disclipine), but only AFTER he has exhausted all other avenues. Domestic violence as we know it, is certainly not what we're talking about here. Domestic violence is abuse and is strictly forbidden in Islam.

Quote:

The females in Muslim countries have my pity

The vast majority of Muslim women would probably just consider this sentiment to be patronising and degrading to them, and would probably resent you for it, and consider it unawarranted.

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mantra

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #19 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 7:29am

Quote:

Is that because of the humliation? Islam does consider a woman to be under the charge of her husband, much as the children are under both their charges. So the husband is permitted to 'smack' his wife in order to disclipine her (as a child would be smacked for disclipine), but only AFTER he has exhausted all other avenues

Not only would it be humiliating, it would make the average western woman very angry - but a Muslim woman has to stand there and accept it. She can't throw an object back at her husband in retaliation or lodge a complaint with the police.

I know these laws are usually only strictly adhered to by certain socio economic groups in Muslim countries and it's also obvious that women from other religions are oppressed in many developing countries as well.

Admittedly my knowledge is only through documentaries and what I read - but take Iran for example. These lovely young girls with their faces made up like models which by Iranian law is perfectly acceptable, but if they let too much hair escape from their hijab - they have moral male police standing around the streets either giving them warnings or arresting them.

We are so lucky to live in a country like Australia where it is not only morally and socially unacceptable, but usually illegal for a male to oppress a female.

Maybe some Muslim women in Islamic countries would feel offended at being pitied, but there are probably just as many who would give anything to live in a Western country where they could have as many rights as their male counterparts.

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Grendel

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #20 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 7:43am

ROTFLMAO

mod

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

Oh dear forgot to highlight tat bit didn't you.

As for NT... yes it is... but it is not a teaching of Christ is it. Corinthians is a letter to people by a disciple, it responds to a letter.

The important message in Corinthians is in these lines...

1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Practice that in your relationships and there is no need for rape. I'm always astonished that all things return to sex with you people. Wassup? Got no self control? Nothing better to do with your time?

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« Last Edit: Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 11:44am by Gaybriel »

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #21 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 7:45am As for your map you are kidding right... you saying the US and Canada do not recognise spousal rape? ROTFLMAO. Rape isn't about love and sexuality... it's about power over another and is an abuse of that power.
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mantra

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #22 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:17am

I've probably got the names wrong, but some Muslim man was on the radio this morning saying that most Muslims don't agree with this Abu Hamza - the rebel Cleric and that he belongs to a group called the Wahibi sect - which isn't part of mainstream Islam.

Obviously Muslims are broken up into different divisions - but do they still follow the same teachings in the Koran?

So what happens next? If this bloke doesn't apologise - will he be deported - that's if he isn't an Australian Muslim?

In his lecture - he also said this.

"The Australian community is in desperate need for me and you (Muslims), the Australian community is in a state of loss, they don't know how to enjoy themselves," Mr Hamza said.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #23 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:18am

Abu - hi, I was quite surprised when I first read that area of corinthians.
Becuase of its equality and setting down ideas for sex in a marriage.

"Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.
The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.
And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.
Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control." (1 Corinthians 7:3-5)

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander !!!!
But, this idea for a marriage would avoid a lot of problems.
often when couples are disagreeing, sex is withheld.
That worsens the situation.

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mantra

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #24 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 8:20am

Quote:

Whats good for the goose is good for the gander !!!!
But, this idea for a marriage would avoid a lot of problems.
often when couples are disagreeing, sex is withheld.
That worsens the situation.

Sprintcyclist - most women can't have sex on tap the way men do. So if they're both angry - it's usually only the male that doesn't let his fury interfere with his sex drive.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #25 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:08am What you think men don't have feelings that way either mantra... ROTFLMAO. I suppose you think a normal man thinks taking sex from an unwilling partner is also enjoyable?
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Lestat Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1403	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #26 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:10am Grendel wrote on Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:08am: I suppose you think a normal man thinks taking sex from an unwilling partner is also enjoyable? I'd be very surprised if you've ever experience otherwise.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #27 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:35am I note we once again are regaled by your giant intellect. oh joy. maybe I'm celibate lester... Trolling from the gutter once more I see. If you're going to follow me around and snipe at least have something intelligent to say.
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Yadda Gold Member Offline Posts: 21958 A cat with a view	Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives Reply #28 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:36am Spousal rape in ISLAM, Koran quotes regarding this 'activity' and the status of women, and an example of the spousal rape of an 8 yr old girl in Yemen, given here..... Taking Jews and Christians as friends http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1231993677/36#36
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freediver

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Re: muslim men allowed to rape wives
Reply #29 - Jan 23^rd, 2009 at 9:39am

Abu, instead of trying to explain Biblical law to Christians, perhaps this would be a good time to explain what the status of a Muslim wife is in the Koran. Is she allowed to deny her husband sex? What recourse does he have if this happens? Is she expected to have sex with him whenever he wants?

Quote:

Is that because of the humliation? Islam does consider a woman to be under the charge of her husband, much as the children are under both their charges. So the husband is permitted to 'smack' his wife in order to disclipine her (as a child would be smacked for disclipine), but only AFTER he has exhausted all other avenues. Domestic violence as we know it, is certainly not what we're talking about here. Domestic violence is abuse and is strictly forbidden in Islam.

So you're changing the definition of domestic violence so that Islam appears to fit in with western values? Haven't you seen the ads on TV about domestic violence? They make it pretty clear that "It was just a smack and she deserved it anyway, and I tried to reason with her first" simply does not cut it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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