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We don't target civilians claims IDF (Read 3036 times)

mantra

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We don't target civilians claims IDF
Jan 24^th, 2009 at 7:52am

SOUAD ABED RABBO was in her apartment on the edge of the Jabalya refugee camp near the Israeli border on January 7 when the call came from Israeli soldiers for everyone in the area to come outside.

Her apartment had been bombed, and there was an Israeli tank unit approaching the building.

"We started coming outside of the apartment, and we were waving white flags to show that we were not fighters," she said through a translator yesterday.

Among the first to exit the building were one of her sons, Khaled, and his wife and three daughters, Amal, 2, Sammer, 4, and Souad, 7.

Two soldiers were standing on either side of the tank outside the house, she said. Another of her sons, Husam, told the Herald that one of the soldiers was an officer.

"They were standing there just looking at us, and they were eating chips and one had chocolate and they were talking to each other," Husam said.

"We were waiting for about 10 minutes for directions on where we should go."

Husam and another son, Ahmed, said a third soldier rose from inside the tank, holding his rifle.

Their mother says she did not see the third soldier until he started shooting.

"He did it very slowly," Ahmed said. "He took careful aim at the little girls, and shot Amal and Souad three times. Sammer started running back up the steps toward the house and he shot her also."

Their grandmother started shouting, trying to push her son, Khaled, the father of the two shot girls, and his wife, back into the house. She was also shot, three times.

One bullet passed through her upper arm, another passed through her torso underneath her rib cage, and another was lodged in her abdomen. Ahmed, Husam, and another son, Farj, recall that their mother and the three girls were dragged inside the house. "When the soldiers realised that two of the girls were dead, they said Khaled could take her to the hospital,"

Khaled starting shouting for help.

One neighbour who heard him was Ehab al-Asheikh, an ambulance driver, who told the Herald he went outside to see what had happened.

"I wanted to use the ambulance to drive Khaled to the hospital but I was prevented from doing so by the soldiers," he said.

Khaled said the soldiers told him he could take his daughter to the hospital, and he set off on foot with Sammer in his arms. His wife walked with him, carrying one of the dead girls, and another brother, Ibrahim, carried the second dead girl.

Sammer was taken to Shifa hospital, then transferred to a hospital in Egypt and is now in intensive care in a hospital in Belgium and reportedly has severe spinal injuries.

The Israeli Defence Forces later destroyed the building, and all the other residential buildings in the neighbourhood.

Ehad al-Asheikh showed the Herald his ambulance which, was crushed almost beyond recognition underneath the rubble of his former home.

An Israeli military spokesman, Captain Benjamin Rutland, said the allegations were being treated seriously and being investigated.

"With regard to this particular incident, this is being investigated at the very highest levels of the IDF," Captain Rutland said. "It is a very thorough investigation."

Captain Rutland stressed that at no stage did the IDF target civilians

Khaled Abed Rabbo showed pictures of the dead girls taken on his mobile phone. He also claims that he has video footage of the girls, taken after they had died, but this was not shown to the Herald.

Khaled Abed Rabbo is on the payroll of the Palestinian Authority based in the West Bank city of Ramallah, as a policeman. The family is associated with the Fatah movement of the Palestinian Authority President, Mahmoud Abbas, and is not believed to have any connections to Hamas.

He is demanding a full inquiry and wants the chance to present his own evidence.

"Why do they come after us?" Khaled asked the Herald. "We are not militants here. We are not Hamas. We are just ordinary people.

"Somebody did this to my daughters and I want the world to know what is going on here."

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/gaza-family-says-israeli-soldier-shot-children/...

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF Reply #1 - Jan 24^th, 2009 at 8:08am Sorry didn't read it... is that the allegation that Israeli troops ordered a family out of a building then shot them? Highly unlikely. We all know that Hamas targets civilians anyone who thinks they don't is an idiot. That's all they target. Thousands of rockets and suicide bombers thats all they target.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF Reply #2 - Jan 24^th, 2009 at 8:29am Just the standard propaganda responses eh... as long as that helps you to sleep better at night, knowing inside yourself you're defending the indefensible and unspeakable atrocities that must really make your own gut turn. You are a pitiful creature.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF Reply #3 - Jan 24^th, 2009 at 8:41am Do you know that it happened Abu? As reported in the article? I just happen to be more positive and less biased in my thinking. I'll wait for the official report. I'll expect if the article is true then some Israelis will be going to jail.
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Yadda

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #4 - Jan 26^th, 2009 at 9:46am

Grendel wrote on Jan 24^th, 2009 at 8:08am:

Sorry didn't read it... is that the allegation that Israeli troops ordered a family out of a building then shot them?

Highly unlikely.

We all know that Hamas targets civilians anyone who thinks they don't is an idiot.

That's all they target. Thousands of rockets and suicide bombers thats all they target.

mantra,

I'm with Grendel.

I'd rather rely on authoritative sources, err, like JIHADWATCH,
.....than the [clearly] PR lies that come from ISLAMIC sources

Hamas always lies, it always boasts of its great prowess on the battlefield, and it always exaggerates the death among its civilians.

Hamas 'exaggerated the death toll in Gaza'

January 23 2009
Israel has seized on claims that Hamas exaggerated the number of people killed during the Gaza offensive and that the group used civilians to provide cover for its attacks.
One newspaper published claims by Gazans that less than 600 people had died in the 22-day attack, far fewer than the 1,300 reported by Palestinian health officials.
A doctor at the main Shifa hospital was reported as having said: "It's possible that the death toll in Gaza was 500 or 600 at the most, mainly youths aged 17 to 23 who were enlisted by Hamas, who sent them to their deaths."
.....Israel....pointed to the vast over-reporting of deaths during an incursion in the West Bank town of Jenin in 2002, when an estimate of more than 1,500 dead was revised to lower than 100.
http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/hamas-exaggerated-the-death-tol...

".....Israel....pointed to the vast over-reporting of deaths during an incursion in the West Bank town of Jenin in 2002, when an estimate of more than 1,500 dead was revised to lower than 100."

Hmmmm.

On another Oz Pol thread.....

"choice and responsibility in Palestine"
freediver wrote on Jan 21^st, 2009 at 9:54am:

If Hamas love death so much, why do they complain so bitterly about it?

FD,
Hamas do not want to die for Allah.

Do muslims know already, that Allah has run out of virgins in 'Paradise' ?
/sac off

This, 'wanting to die for Allah's cause', is just another LIE by Hamas / Jihadists.

And this next news report makes that fact clear......

January 25, 2009
"Hamas tried to hijack ambulances during Gaza war," by Jason Koutsoukis for the Sydney Morning Herald, January 26
(thanks to Sr. Soph):
PALESTINIAN civilians living in Gaza during the three-week war with Israel have spoken of the challenge of being caught between Hamas and Israeli soldiers as the radical Islamic movement that controls the Gaza strip attempted to hijack ambulances.
......the more immediate threat was from Hamas, who would lure the ambulances into the heart of a battle to transport fighters to safety.
......"They [three Hamas fighters] were very scared, and very nervous They dropped their weapons and ordered me to get them out, to put them in the ambulance and take them away. I refused, because if the IDF sees me doing this I am finished, I cannot pick up any more wounded people.
"And then one of the fighters picked up a gun and held it to my head, to force me. I still refused, and then they allowed me to leave."
Mr Shriteh says Hamas made several attempts to hijack the al-Quds Hospital's fleet of ambulances during the war.
"You hear when they are coming. People ring to tell you. So we had to get in all the ambulances and make the illusion of an emergency and only come back when they had gone."...
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/hamas-tried-to-hijack-ambulances-during-gaza-wa...

+++++++

The Hadith recounts, that Muhammad declares that war is deceit.

"The Prophet said, "War is deceit." "

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith...

War?

But isn't ISLAM, a religion,
....of peace?
/sarc off

« Last Edit: Jan 26^th, 2009 at 9:51am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #5 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 8:56am

Quote:

The newspaper is known to trail online blogs and has been criticised on occasion for taking stories from them without giving credit to the original author. It's also derided by many on the Irish left for it's perceived economic conservatism and by Irish Republicans for it's stance on Northern Ireland.

Independent.ie

Quoting stories from newpapers who are known to just dress blog entries up as reputable news stories is pretty pathetic Yadda, right on par for you though.

Quote:

when an estimate of more than 1,500 dead was revised to lower than 100.

Revised by who? The iDF?

As with Gaza, no independant media or observers were permitted into the battle zone to see with their own eyes what was going on, the only 'facts' that come out are those filtered out by the IDF and their propaganda department.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF Reply #6 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 9:15am Are you saying Jason Koutsoukis is not a journalist and his story is a beat up Abu?
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Yadda

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #7 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 12:04pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jan 27^th, 2009 at 8:56am:

Quote:

Independent.ie

Quoting stories from newpapers who are known to just dress blog entries up as reputable news stories is pretty pathetic Yadda, right on par for you though.

Quote:

when an estimate of more than 1,500 dead was revised to lower than 100.

abu,

So you saying that in the Israeli incursion in the West Bank town of Jenin in 2002, that 1500 people died as a consequence of that incursion?

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #8 - Jan 27^th, 2009 at 3:05pm

Here is the story told by the same man to another newspaper

Well it supposed to be told by the same man but impression is that authors of this two stories are two different people.

Why is it:

In the SMH version, the grandmother was shot after the children were shot, a while after she left the house waving white flags, but in the Independent version, she was shot as she was waving a white headscarf?

In the SMH version, Amal and Souad were shot three times, but in the Independent version, Souad was shot 12 times?

In the SMH version of Sammer being shot as she "started running back up the steps toward the house," yet this rather relevant fact is omitted from the Independent version?

According to the SMH, the grandmother was shot three times, with bullets passing through her upper arm and her torso underneath her rib cage, and another being lodged in her abdomen. If the IDF soldier was really aiming at the family, how come he was not able to kill her (like he allegedly did to the kids)? If anything, she was an easier target. Furthermore, how come in the photo, she looks like she has nothing more than an arm wound?

In the SMH version, the soldiers dragged the family into the house, but in the Independent version, the soldiers let them alone?

In the SMH version, there was no delay in finding an ambulance, since one of the neighbors was an ambulance driver, yet in the Independent version, there was a delay before an ambulance could reach the building “because the road from the west had been made impassable by the churning of the tanks”? And even then, the family only got to an ambulance after a 2 km walk?

In the SMH version, the ambulance driver complained that he was prevented from getting to the hospital by IDF soldiers, resulting in the family walking there on foot, yet the Independent version makes no mention of this, and in fact makes it sound like the ambulance did make it to the hospital?

In the Independent version, the father was able to see ringlets visible below the soldiers helmet, despite trying to avoid being hit by bullets? Furthermore, how is this even possible, given (as the Independent actually mentions) "the small minority of ultra-Orthodox Jews who serve in the army are in a unit which did not take part in the Gaza offensive and only a very small number of settlers who also favour that hairstyle serve in other units"?

These discrepancies make me think that the story is nothing but a fine example of Pallywood fiction drama.

Reality is a figment of imagination

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Yadda

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #9 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 12:40am

Yadda posted,
Quote:

".....Israel....pointed to the vast over-reporting of deaths during an incursion in the West Bank town of Jenin in 2002, when an estimate of more than 1,500 dead was revised to lower than 100."

abu posted,
Quote:

Revised by who? The iDF?
As with Gaza, no independant media or observers were permitted into the battle zone to see with their own eyes what was going on, the only 'facts' that come out are those filtered out by the IDF and their propaganda department.

abu,

TRUTH exposed, hurts liars.

But liars never injure TRUTH.

LIES exposed, are merely like water off a ducks back, to TRUTH.

Yet lies exposed, perpetually remain a disgrace and a shame, to those men who propagate them.
....LIARS, men without honour.

tallowood posted,
Quote:

"......the story [of reported Israeli 'war crimes'] is nothing but a fine example of Pallywood fiction drama."

YOUTUBE
GAZA - JENIN - same lies same propaganda

http://www.youtube.com/vwatch?v=tePeYedwK1Y

++++++++++++++

Islam is a lie and truth is killing it.

Posted by: Alaskan
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023681.php#c602782

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #10 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 12:45am

Matthew 10:26
Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known.
27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

John 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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abu_rashid

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #11 - Jan 28^th, 2009 at 9:15am

Quote:

So you saying that in the Israeli incursion in the West Bank town of Jenin in 2002, that 1500 people died as a consequence of that incursion?

Since I never claimed it was 1500, merely disputing the revised figured does not default me back to claiming 1500.

Fatah claimed large numbers (500, Saeb Erekat), as did the IDF (200, IDF Spokesman Brigadier General Ron Kitri) initially (note: Fatah and Israel are allies, against the Palestinian people). They then both magically revised their numbers. Eyewitnesses in the refugee camps themselves witnessed much more than 50 people being killed, and also witnessed dead bodies being carted away by trucks and being buried deep under the rubble, whilst Israel tip toed around U.N requests for a fact finding mission. They stalled them until the U.N finally gave up and abandoned the investigation... Why deny them entry if they had nothing to hide?

Even Israeli newspapers reported that bodies were transported out of Jenin:

On Friday, April 12, it was reported that "the IDF intends to bury today Palestinians killed in the West Bank camp. Around 200 Palestinians are believed to have been killed in clashes with Israeli soldiers since the start of the operation last week... Military sources said until now the IDF has not buried any of the bodies. The sources said that two infantry companies, along with members of the military rabbinate, will enter the camp today to collect the bodies. Those who can be identified as civilians will be moved to a hospital in Jenin, and then on to burial, while those identified as terrorists will be buried at a special cemetery in the Jordan Valley. One Israeli source said that the decision to bury the bodies was taken to prevent the Palestinians from using the bodies for propaganda purposes... The Palestinian Authority has expressed concerns that Israel is trying to hide the large number of dead, since it has blocked Palestinian medical teams from evacuating the dead and wounded from the camp during the past week. " (Ha'aretz, April 12, Anat Cigelman, Amos Harel and Amira Hass)

I don't think we'll find out for quite some time what really happened in Jenin, but most parties involved agree it was quite a gruesome massacre. Amnesty International (who seem to be only telling the truth if they're talking about China, Iran or Zimbabwe etc) had some quite strong words to say about what occured there.

An interview with an Israeli reservist serving in the Jenin massacre, makes it quite clear that they just indiscriminately shot people all over the place. It's quite obvious why they had to move the bodies to the Jordan valley (which remained a 'closed military area') and why they had to stall the U.N mission.

"After the first moments of the fighting, when a commander was killed... the instructions were clear: shoot every window, sew every house - whether someone shoots from there or not." To the question whether he saw civilians get hurt, the reservist answered: "Personally - not. But the point is that they were inside the houses. The last days, the majority of those who came out of the houses were old people, women and children, who were there the whole time and absorbed our fire. These people were not given any chance to leave the camp, and we are talking about many people" (Ofer Shelah, Yediot Aharonot's weekend supplement, April 19, 2002).

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Yadda

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #12 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 8:51am

.

New questions about the Gaza death toll, in the recent Israeli 'incursion'.....

February 18, 2009 at 10:43 am
Gaza Body Count: Were We Duped?
"......What is more important to note is that the Palestinian figures were effectively accepted and endorsed by independent organizations such as the United Nations, the International Committee of the Red Cross and Israeli human rights groups. They effectively corroborated the Palestinian figures, not by doing independent body counts, but in most cases by closely observing the war on the ground in Gaza with scores of their own staff people. The ICRC, for example, had a dozen or so foreign staff working mainly in Gaza hospitals, and another few dozen Palestinian staff. Indeed, the CLA report itself basically corroborates the overall death count of 1,300...."

http://mideast.blogs.time.com/2009/02/18/gaza-body-count-were-we-duped/?xid=rss-...

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood

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Re: We don't target civilians claims IDF
Reply #13 - Feb 20^th, 2009 at 3:23pm

Feb 19, 2009 23:40 | Updated Feb 20, 2009 2:30

Quote:

The IDF's Gaza Coordination and Liaison Administration (CLA), which earlier this week told The Jerusalem Post that 12 Palestinians were killed in the shelling near a UN school in Jabalya, north of Gaza City - and not 42 as claimed by Palestinian officials at the time - has now given the Post the names of seven of those fatalities.
...
The incident at the UN school was a key case in point, said the CLA's head, Col. Moshe Levi, since initial reports erroneously stating that the IDF had fired at the school, and putting the death toll at 42, were widely adopted at first by the UN and various NGOs. Earlier this month, the UN corrected its position and confirmed that the shelling and all of the fatalities had taken place outside the school compound.

Reality is a figment of imagination

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