Unfortunately, this woman will remain in very real danger from Islamists, because she challenges aspects of Islamic teaching, and the fact that so many muslims are not appalled enough by that sort of behaviour, to actually speak up for the rights of others to hold differing opinions, displays how very far Islam has to come, before it could fairly be called, tolerant, or peaceful.

The petulant vitriol unleashed at anyone who does not accept Islam, as it wants to try and portray itself, is indicative of a terrible immaturity, and insecurity, which only the muslim ummah can hope to change.

Yes, I would have liked to have seen greater progress too, grendel, but I always live in hope, that our shared humanity, will eventually outweigh any religious differences.

I hope that common ground will help those who demonise all muslims to recognise the unfairness of that stance, and I hope the muslims who vilify everything western will eventually recognise the futility of that direction, and I hope that the vast majority, who do not fit into either of these extremes, can start a better dialogue, which will see a more secular, humanist approach adopted by that majority.

It took the Christian church centuries to cede it's control over government to more appropriate mechanisms. This is now happening relatively quickly in the middle east.

Sure they have. They are in the process of it. Have you noticed that even though conservative Muslims such as Abu claim that a new caliphate is a genuine goal for Muslims around the world, Muslims have totally failed to act on this, even when given demcoracy, and even where muslims are the overwhelming majority? I would only place them a century behind the west.

I'd say that the push for reform will come from the groundswell of ordinary people in Iran. Those heavy metal bands, and the female skier who had to leave Iran to pursue her career, among others. There is still quite a moderate influence from France in Tehran. Women still buy expensive perfumes, lipstick and luxury goods.

It's sad to see Iran so repressed in a way, because the Persians are among the most interesting people in the Muslim world. Iranian women are also legendary for their beauty. They have class. Compare them to Iraqis and there is just no comparison.

I agree with Freediver that the Muslims you talk to here are more than a bit conservative compared to the version of Islam that I saw in many countries. I just wonder if it's a question of the new conversions on the block having to prove themselves? That has to elicit a response  

Politics is highly non-linear Grendel. Change tends to be sudden rather than gradual.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 3:34pm:

No ruling class or organisation willingly gives up power. Real power is taken, not given.

Christian denominations didn't cede control of a state willingly, it was all ripped from the fists of clerics through force of arms and/or disestablishment by secularists. The Vatican remained brooding and embittered for decades by the forced ceding of the Papal States. Even today I'm sure the Anglican Church would fight hard to remain established in Britain.

As for Islamism, it has to be resisted on every front so that it rots from the inside out.

pope urban 2 wrote on Jan 26^th, 2009 at 12:41pm:


so? atheists kill atheists every day, christians kill christians etc etc- but I don't see you attributing any significance to that