Australian Politics Forum - "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."

tallowood

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #15 - May 28^th, 2009 at 9:48pm

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:38pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

I'm sure you don't mean to sound like a snob Tallow - but your post reads as though you believe Christians are far more superior than their atheist brothers and you're even lumping them in with your dreaded enemies - the Muslims.

Yes - it's wonderful that you have your faith, but those who don't or aren't of the same faith - are not less worthy.

I'am not a snob or a judge but only an observer.
My observation of history of religions tells me that christianity is more mature then islam or atheism.

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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #16 - May 29^th, 2009 at 8:14pm

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:21pm:

Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, Roll Eyes

, but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should.

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative.

The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.

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skippy

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #17 - May 30^th, 2009 at 1:01pm

Soren wrote on May 29^th, 2009 at 8:14pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:21pm:

Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, Roll Eyes

, but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should.

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative.

The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.

More bible bashing by the retard, whats this got to do with Arabs? Why are so many christians dickheads?.

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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #18 - May 30^th, 2009 at 6:14pm

Quote:

Soren wrote on May 29^th, 2009 at 8:14pm:

tallowood wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:31pm:

mantra wrote on May 28^th, 2009 at 9:21pm:

Phew - that's a relief. It's interesting that you find Calanen honourable - not that I'm saying he isn't, Roll Eyes

, but is it because he shares your views on Muslims? Although on the other hand you have made a concession by saying that some Muslims are honourable - that is the first step towards conciliation Tallow and hopefully one day you'll accept them as your equals just as a good Christian should.

There are exceptions in many rules but the exceptions don't invalidate the rules. When the nature of islamic and atheistic religions will change then only bad muslims and atheists will become exceptions rather then rules. I hope it will happen sooner then later but I don't hold my breath.

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations. They are both pedestrian rationalists. Islam circuscribes everything with a narrow concept of 'submission' to the rules as comrehended in Araby in the 7th century. Atheism equates the limits of reason with the limits of the universe. Both are parochial and unimaginative.

The unimaginativeness of athesim, by the way, was the final trump card Tolkien offered CS Lewis (an atheist until then) after years of evening walks and discussion in Oxford; an argument that finally convinced Lewis, a professor of literature, to consider the alternative to atheism. It is a trump card not for religon but for an opening of a parcochial mind.

More bible bashing by the retard, whats this got to do with Arabs? Why are so many christians dickheads?.

Whoosh!!!

(as usual, Mr Whooosh!)

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Calanen

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."
Reply #19 - May 30^th, 2009 at 8:08pm

Quote:

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations.

There is nothing comparable between atheism and muslims. Atheists just do not believe in God. Muslims are nut jobs who believe their god says they have to headbutt the carpet five days a day, blow people up and take over the world.

Why should anyone believe in God? Is it a safety in numbers thing? I don't care what you believe as long as your wacky beliefs about imaginary deities stay out of the classrooms, courts and government.

Two 'religions' concern me -Islam and Scientology. Luckily there are not many scientologists for it to be a problem. Islam is a big problem as a political religion, which is really a large supremacist political party organised under religious lines and enforced with extreme violence.

So what if Tolkein convinced CS Lewis or vice versa to be religious. I'm not religious, and I don't care if you are. If you want to debate the facts and evidence supporting a supreme being, its not a debate you can ever win. If you just want to believe in something without any facts or evidence to support it - go for your life. Could care less.

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Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40735 Gender:	Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...." Reply #20 - May 30^th, 2009 at 10:29pm See, this is exactly why I far prefer to chat with athiests over agnostics. Athiests have made a definite decision, agnostics are indecisive.
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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #21 - May 30^th, 2009 at 10:57pm

Calanen wrote on May 30^th, 2009 at 8:08pm:

Quote:

The thing atheists and Muslims share is a rationalism (as opposed to reasonableness) that is totally oblivious to its own limitations.

There is nothing comparable between atheism and muslims. Atheists just do not believe in God. Muslims are nut jobs who believe their god says they have to headbutt the carpet five days a day, blow people up and take over the world.

Why should anyone believe in God? Is it a safety in numbers thing? I don't care what you believe as long as your wacky beliefs about imaginary deities stay out of the classrooms, courts and government.

Two 'religions' concern me -Islam and Scientology. Luckily there are not many scientologists for it to be a problem. Islam is a big problem as a political religion, which is really a large supremacist political party organised under religious lines and enforced with extreme violence.

So what if Tolkein convinced CS Lewis or vice versa to be religious. I'm not religious, and I don't care if you are. If you want to debate the facts and evidence supporting a supreme being, its not a debate you can ever win. If you just want to believe in something without any facts or evidence to support it - go for your life. Could care less.

The debate is not with me. You don't have to beleve anything. Religion is not a numbers thing.

Reason has recognisded its limits since the late 18th century. 'God' is the ideas one has when the mind, the self, the conscious being, extends beyond those limits. Nothing positive (posited) can be said about god. That does not mean that there is nothing beyond the recognised boundaries of reasoning that the living, conscious self cannot go to.

On a practical level, the hopes, hates, fears and loves of all who went before us cannot be dismissed as delusions, lest our own hopes and hates and the rest are also dismissed. Life is an uncertain and therefore anxious business. We recognise that anxiety in one another. God is in the shock of recognition in a poem or a wordless piece of music. God is where it all falls away and you are, for a moment, stunned by the fact that you exist - and that you are, in that moment, comprehending your very own stunned being.

Is that then a bearded old fellow? Of course not. Does that moment signal to you a singular binding to all the living and all who ever lived? Of course. Is that God?
Well, I can't say it isn't. But who can?

You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world.

As to muslms and atheists, they share a stubborn equation of the limits of their wits with the limts of the world. That is what I mean by their unreasonable ratonalism.

Be a secularist, be an agnostic and I will say you are reasonable. Be an atheist and I will say that you have let the cart run away with you, you have succumbed to boastfulness.i

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« Last Edit: May 30^th, 2009 at 11:29pm by Soren »

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."
Reply #22 - May 30^th, 2009 at 11:29pm

soren - I think I see your point of view.
An athiests ideology presumes that there is no god, hence man made man where we are now?
So, sure, that is somewhat boastful.

I well have time for athiests on a completley different level, they just call it as they see it.
Generally athiests really don't care what other people believe, long as it does not impede their democratic secular rights. Which I fully agree with.

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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."
Reply #23 - May 30^th, 2009 at 11:42pm

Atheism is not simply being anti-theocratic. That is secularism and that is what I am., a secularist. Whether I believe in god or not is neither here nor there as far as secularism is concerned.

Atheism is a declaraton of certainty about something unknowable. It is no different in temperament and intellectual acuity than taking god to be a bearded old man. I think that many athesist are actually battling that particular vulgarity and so are caught up in and ensnared and self-defined by a vulgarity

.i

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Calanen

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #24 - May 31^st, 2009 at 10:29am

Quote:

You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world.

To the extent that you can be certain about anything, you can be certain that there is no God. As stated above, you can say the same thing about Papa Smurf, Leprechans and the Flying Spaghetti Monster - that maybe somewhere in the universe they exist and because you cannot disprove they do, therefore they must.

This is the logical fallacy about God - you say because I cannot disprove the existence of God, there must be God. All I say is I do not believe in God. Nobody, can say, especially with the definition of reality potentially extending to multiverses and outside the prime material plane of existence that there is not a God somewhere. I.E even if I could tour the entire universe and prove there was no God lurking anywhere, you would just say that God was somewhere outside the universe. And even if I could travel outside this universe to another universe, you would just say, no not THAT universe, God is in some other universe you cannot go to.

In this tiny planet, in the outer spiral arm of one of billions of galaxies, it is the height of arrogance to think that the machinations of Mohammed, Jesus, Buddha or whoever was the centre of creation, the universe, God and everything else. We are just a primitive group of bipeds that have not even mastered space flight - babbling on about all sorts of different religions that are just fantasy. Modern religions are just slight variants of the worship of the mountain fire God or the golden idol. Stories for children or childlike adults.

There can be no absolute disproof of anything that we may conjure in our minds, that does not mean there is any facts or evidence upon which we can believe in its existence. The fact that people have conscious thought, hopes and dreams or whatever is not proof of God either - it is not even evidence in support of God.

What we have is some advanced ape derived creatures that wear clothes and drive cars, and think its really sad that they die so there just *must* be a magical heaven place where everyone goes to meet up after they turn into worm food. That is just superstitious nonsense for the weak minded, but I accept that most people are weak minded and need that nonsense to feel better about living in the world and being mortal. Dealing with death is not easy for many.

I don't of course need this crutch to lean on - facts and evidence is what I rely upon.

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« Last Edit: May 31^st, 2009 at 10:35am by Calanen »

Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #25 - May 31^st, 2009 at 10:56am

Disbelief in god would be easy and almost universal (given the lack of evidence) if we didn’t expect that god’s existence implied his capacity to prolong life, grant concessions, bestow favours, offer eternal life and intervene at one's behest through prayer. Were none of these the sine qua non for the implications of god’s existence, god would simply not exist, just as he doesn’t in Buddhism.

The primary need for positing god’s existence is the selfish craving for a guarantee of eternal life and/or endless temporal good health and fortune.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #26 - May 31^st, 2009 at 11:18am

Calanen, it looks to me that you are thinking of and talking about a metaphysical god - an entity outside the world. Since we can only speak about the world, whatever we might say about a metaphysical god will turn out to be an unrecognised projection of this worldy experience and language. So in the sense that smurfs are examples of this fairytale metaphysical projecton, there is no such metaphysical god either. An antropomorphic god, like smurfs and leprachains, is no more than a metaphor, an illustration, a pinning down of an unfolding.
So there is no bearded bloke above the clouds.

Nevertheless, Being, existence, has been a question since the Greeks who concieved of it metaphysically, and remains a question even after metaphysics is dissolved with the critique of reason (that is, time, space, causality etc are recognised as categories of reason rather than qualities of the world). So how to orient ourselves towards the question of Being, after metaphysics? Heidegger has a good tip:

"Let me give a little hint on how to listen. The point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing."

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Yadda

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #27 - Jun 1^st, 2009 at 12:36pm

Soren wrote on May 30^th, 2009 at 10:57pm:

The debate is not with me. You don't have to beleve anything. Religion is not a numbers thing.

Reason has recognisded its limits since the late 18th century. 'God' is the ideas one has when the mind, the self, the conscious being, extends beyond those limits.
Nothing positive (posited) can be said about god. That does not mean that there is nothing beyond the recognised boundaries of reasoning that the living, conscious self cannot go to.

On a practical level, the hopes, hates, fears and loves of all who went before us cannot be dismissed as delusions, lest our own hopes and hates and the rest are also dismissed. Life is an uncertain and therefore anxious business.
We recognise that anxiety in one another. God is in the shock of recognition in a poem or a wordless piece of music. God is where it all falls away and you are, for a moment, stunned by the fact that you exist - and that you are, in that moment, comprehending your very own stunned being.

Is that then a bearded old fellow? Of course not. Does that moment signal to you a singular binding to all the living and all who ever lived? Of course. Is that God?
Well, I can't say it isn't. But who can?

You can be agnostic about all this. To be an atheist is to assert a certitude you have no power to assert. Only a fool would declare the limits of his wits to be the limits of the world.

As to muslms and atheists, they share a stubborn equation of the limits of their wits with the limts of the world. That is what I mean by their unreasonable ratonalism.

Be a secularist, be an agnostic and I will say you are reasonable. Be an atheist and I will say that you have let the cart run away with you, you have succumbed to boastfulness.

Wow!

Good.

A searcher on the path.

I would venture to declare that in this 'reality', we [can] know no absolutes.

To declare that we do [as atheists do], is indeed a 'boastfulness', and a demonstrated ignorance,
....of our own persistent ignorance. Grin

'Rational' man [worldly man] is sooooo dumb, and yet, still so proud [of himself].

So proud, of the infinitesimal amount of knowledge, he has acquired and grasped hold of.

Too 'blind' and puffed up to see, that he knows virtually nothing, of his real circumstances.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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tallowood Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6048	Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...." Reply #28 - Jun 1^st, 2009 at 7:47pm Disbelief in atheism is easy for those who witnessed it as state religion.
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Soren

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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #29 - Jun 1^st, 2009 at 8:45pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 31^st, 2009 at 10:56am:

Disbelief in god would be easy and almost universal (given the lack of evidence) if we didn’t expect that god’s existence implied his capacity to prolong life, grant concessions, bestow favours, offer eternal life and intervene at one's behest through prayer. Were none of these the sine qua non for the implications of god’s existence, god would simply not exist, just as he doesn’t in Buddhism.

The primary need for positing god’s existence is the selfish craving for a guarantee of eternal life and/or endless temporal good health and fortune.

if you looked at the history of philosophy (or any other human activity of the mind) you would see how adolsecent this stuff is.

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