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"Look at how the Arabs live in the West...." (Read 5388 times)
Calanen
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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #30 - Jun 2nd, 2009 at 10:35am
 
Soren wrote on May 31st, 2009 at 11:18am:
Calanen, it looks to me that you are thinking of and talking about a metaphysical god - an entity outside the world. Since we can only speak about the world, whatever we might say about a metaphysical god will turn out to be an unrecognised projection of this worldy experience and language. So in the sense that smurfs are examples of this fairytale metaphysical projecton, there is no such metaphysical god either. An antropomorphic god, like smurfs and leprachains, is no more than a metaphor, an illustration, a pinning down of an unfolding.


I am not speaking of any God at all, only the arguments used to support the existence of it or him. That is, because I cannot prove that there is no God in this world, therefore there must be one, which is fallacious reasoning. I was simply saying it would not end there, as because I could prove that there was no God in this world, religious types would simply say that the God was not in this universe, so ner.

We cannot know *anything* with absolute certainty, at least until it happens. That does not mean we can never know anything. One of the things, I do believe, is that the sun will come up tomorrow. I cannot know with absolute certainty that it will, but I believe it will on facts and evidence.

Similarly, with God, there are no facts and evidence which support his or its existence. What there is, is a whole host of different made up explanations to assuage the fear of death in a variety of cultures. The explanations differ because none of them were real and all of them were invented to meet the one human need - insecurity over death that arrives from self-awareness.  All I can say is - deal with it - there is no God and you may as well enjoy your life and stop worrying about it.


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Nevertheless, Being, existence, has been a question since the Greeks who concieved of it metaphysically, and remains a question even after metaphysics is dissolved with the critique of reason (that is, time, space, causality etc are recognised as categories of reason rather than qualities of the world). So how to orient ourselves towards the question of Being, after metaphysics? Heidegger has a good tip:[

"Let me give a little hint on how to listen. The point is not to listen to a series of propositions, but rather to follow the movement of showing."



Let's start with the Greeks. If we were in the time of the Peloppensian Wars, you would be saying 'Of COURSE there is a Zeus, and Athena! Heretic - you cannot prove there is no Zeus and Athena, so there must be one!

Jesus had not been born yet, neither had Mohammed. Zeus and Athena were the true Gods, along with all the others. But they were as made up as all the others. And in time, there will be more false prophets like Mohammed telling primitive people that God said he can have sex with 30 women and marry 14 including a 6 year old girl, or whatever, and they will be just as false.

Deceive yourself as much as you wish, but don't hassle everyone else about it.
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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.
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Yadda
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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #31 - Jun 2nd, 2009 at 3:16pm
 
Calanen wrote on Jun 2nd, 2009 at 10:35am:
I am not speaking of any God at all, only
the arguments used to support the existence of it or him. That is, because I cannot prove that there is no God in this world, therefore there must be one, which is fallacious reasoning.




Cal,

I completely agree with the logic of the proposition which you stated above.

What i am saying is that, perhaps the reasoning expressed above, is not the basis of the belief in God, for a lot of ppl,
......who do have a believe in the existence of [a] God?








Quote:
I was simply saying it would not end there, as because I could prove that there was no God in this world, religious types would simply say that the God was not in this universe, so ner.

We cannot know *anything* with absolute certainty, at least until it happens. That does not mean we can never know anything. One of the things, I do believe, is that the sun will come up tomorrow. I cannot know with absolute certainty that it will, but I believe it will on facts and evidence.

Similarly, with God, there are no facts and evidence which support his or its existence. What there is, is a whole host of different made up explanations to assuage the fear of death in a variety of cultures. The explanations differ because none of them were real and all of them were invented to meet the one human need - insecurity over death that arrives from self-awareness. 
All I can say is - deal with it - there is no God and you may as well enjoy your life and stop worrying about it.





Cal,

It sounds to me, like you should be sponsoring advt's on the side of UK buses!          Grin


...


The Atheist Bus Campaign will soon run on buses across the UK capital with the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life."


at...
"All Aboard the Athiest bus"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1225016818/0#0




hey cal, whatever spins your bus wheels!          Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
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Soren
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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West....
Reply #32 - Jun 2nd, 2009 at 11:01pm
 
Calanen wrote on May 31st, 2009 at 10:29am:
[quote]

What we have is some advanced ape derived creatures that wear clothes and drive cars, and think its really sad that they die so there just *must* be a magical heaven place where everyone goes to meet up after they turn into worm food. That is just superstitious nonsense for the weak minded, but I accept that most people are weak minded and need that nonsense to feel better about living in the world and being mortal. Dealing with death is not easy for many.

I don't of course need this crutch to lean on - facts and evidence is what I rely upon.




Fact and evidence are not without moral dimension. What is more, the moral dimension is not inherent in the facts and evdence themselves but in you. That's the rub - no-one can wriggle out of the moral responsibility under the guise of relying only on facts and evidence. These, in themselves, are meanngless things and so you cannot rely on them without first facing up to your moral judgement.

Religion, of course, is not about death but life. It is about death only insofar as death is part of life - and it has never, ever been the other way around, life has never been about death. So that "crutch for the weak minded who are afraid of death" quip is baseless. Death is the end of your efforts - daily, hourly efforts - to comprehend the meanng of your life. In this, by the way, you utterly apart from the ape-like creature you allude to. What IS amazing is that despte our ape-like biology, how fantastically different we are from them. So you are not afrad of death because of what's on the 'other side' but because that is the end of all your efforts to make out a meanng for your life.

You are a moral creature, no matter what your ecclesiatical affiliation is or is not, which historical epoch you inhabit, what language you speak. How you make sense of that is your lifelong occupation. And you have to keeep your moral wits about you, as it were, because morality is in the actual encounter, not in the down-pat slogan or formulaton. It s in the actuaal encounter with actual people - and we all know how unpredcatble and eveer-changng that is.

And precisely because of the ever-changing, lived experience of your conscious moral agency, you cannot shove it all aside as some new-fangled sociological or socio-biological 'oh, it's just us being frigging apes in cars' reduction or some such nonsense.

When you recognise that you are not the only cosncious moral agent going around until the end of your days trying to live the good life in accordance with the standards (tested daily) of your concious moral agency - well, that's when you find yourself bound to others. And those standards and that moral agency - they are yours, uniquely, singularly, as they are inseparable from your life. And it aint' chemical, robotic, 'I'm just a car driving ape' fluff. Otherwise it would cost me only a bunch of bananas to get you on side about anything.

So we have to grant that you are free. Which you would not be if you were not a conscous moral agent but a mere ape-derived creature in a car with a tie on.
i
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."
Reply #33 - Jun 3rd, 2009 at 8:25am
 
back to the topic.
this one courtesy of soren

Quote:
(IsraelNN.com) Members of the Egyptian Coptic diaspora urged American President Barack Obama to remember the Middle East's oppressed non-Muslim minorities during his upcoming trip to Cairo. Several members of the U.S. Congress echoed the Copts' concerns. 
President Obama is slated to deliver what has been billed as a groundbreaking speech of reconciliation between the West and the Muslim world at Cairo University on June 4, 2009. Christian Copts of California (CCC), an organization representing expatriate Egyptians of the ancient Coptic minority, has written an urgent letter to the American leader reminding him that "reconciliation cannot be separated from reciprocation. The Islamic World must not demand from us that which they are unwilling to retune to us and to extend to their own citizens of other religious. I hope you help them understand reconciliation is a two-way street."
In their letter, dated May 27, CCC acknowledged that the "Muslim World has been voicing feelings of grievances against the USA." While "it is crucial for the USA to listen to the Islamic World's point of view," writes Mounir Bishay, on behalf of the organization, "I hope somebody tells them it is equally crucial for them to listen to America's point of view. Historically the USA has done sufficient favors for the Muslim World to earn respect rather than such vehement hatred.Somebody needs to remind them the USA has been good to them. A large part of U.S. foreign aid has been going to Islamic countries." 
Even the vast oil reserves enjoyed by the Arab Gulf States, the CCC letter notes, were only developed thanks to "American technologies and ingenuity" and that "the oil fields of the Gulf Islamic States would go unprotected from outside aggressors" without America. "Ironically, some of such are neighboring Muslim nations. Somebody needs to remind the Muslim World that polite reciprocity for generous kindnesses shown is supposedly an Islamic custom."
Muslims in America, CCC continues, live with "no restrictions on their religious practices and they are free to expend efforts to convert as many Americans as they can to Islam. Mosques, Islamic centers and schools are freely built allover the country. Such freedoms are most definitely not offered to those of other faiths within the boundaries of the Islamic World."In Egypt "the capital of the Islamic World, where Mr. Obama has chosen to deliver his speech," CCC states, "Muslims seeking to convert to Christianity or to any other faith are not permitted to do so. Christians need presidential decrees to build new churches and governor's approval to repair existing ones. There have been instances where Christians were arrested for praying in their homes without a permit." Furthermore, the Coptic organization claims that there are quotas limiting the hiring of Christians in some professions in Egypt.
As of this writing, Bishay told Israel National News, there has been no official response from the White House. Previously, American Copts also sent a letter to the Egyptian Ambassador to Washington, Sameh Shukri, demanding fair treatment for the Egyptian Coptic community.
According to Jim Jacobson, president of Christian Freedom International, "When it comes to human rights and the treatment of minority Christians, Egypt has an extremely poor track record. The President should have a lot to talk about with Egyptian President Muhammad Hosni Mubarak, one of the longest-serving leaders in the Arab world. We hope he uses this as an opportunity to speak out for persecuted, minority Christians in Egypt."
In Egypt, Islam, the official state religion, is the primary authority for legislation. Estimates of the number of Christians range from 10 to 15 million, out of a total of 79 million. Most Christian Egyptians are members of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which predates the Islamic conquest of the region by hundreds of years.
Congressmen Also Step Up
In a lengthy letter to President Obama, delivered May 28, ten members of the U.S. Congress also called on him to take a stand for minority rights in the Arab world.
"The Middle East has historically been a place of religious pluralism and cultural diversity," the congresspeople claimed. "Please remind your audience that while the international community is committed to help Muslim minorities around the world, including those in India, Russia, China, and the West, at the same time we must ensure that all other minorities inside the 'Muslim world' are granted their basic rights."
Turning to Obama's hosts for the June 4 speech, the congressional letter added, "We urge you to ask [your audience] to help Egypt fight the scourge of terrorism and stand by its own Coptic minority, often targeted by extremists' violence."


http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131661
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Re: "Look at how the Arabs live in the West...."
Reply #34 - Jun 3rd, 2009 at 11:16am
 
Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3rd, 2009 at 8:25am:
back to the topic.
this one courtesy of soren

Quote:
(IsraelNN.com)


Muslims in America, CCC continues, live with "no restrictions on their religious practices and they are free to expend efforts to convert as many Americans as they can to Islam. Mosques, Islamic centers and schools are freely built allover the country. Such freedoms are most definitely not offered to those of other faiths within the boundaries of the Islamic World."In Egypt "the capital of the Islamic World, where Mr. Obama has chosen to deliver his speech," CCC states, "Muslims seeking to convert to Christianity or to any other faith are not permitted to do so. Christians need presidential decrees to build new churches and governor's approval to repair existing ones. There have been instances where Christians were arrested for praying in their homes without a permit." Furthermore, the Coptic organization claims that there are quotas limiting the hiring of Christians in some professions in Egypt.



http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/131661



Better late than never to come with legitimate complain regarding treatment of other faiths.

I wander if it doesn’t stop, shouldn’t we offer reciprocity too?
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