Australian Politics Forum - Churches oppose Islamic school

Calanen

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #240 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 9:12pm

tallowood wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 8:00pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 1:20pm:

...
The worst, most blatant and unrepentant hypocrites you'll ever meet are religious.

"The statement is truism because ALL homo sapience including atheists are religious" (c) K9

I'm not. I'm an atheist. Absence of belief is not a religion.

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ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #241 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 9:59pm

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 8:12pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 4:57pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 3:38pm:

historically christians don't want to rule, we promote a secular democracy.

Now that's just a naive and stupid statement. Why do you think the Vatican still exists as a city-state?

It is half-a-city-block state, actually. And Catholicism is the state religion of such world-manipulators as, er... Monaco, Lichtenstein (with a name like that, probably a jooish front, what?), Costa Rica, a couple of Swiss cantons and Argentina.

Secularism is a Christian idea, whether you like it or not. That various churches wish to be heard in the national debates is not an expresson of a will to rule.

The Vatican is the rump of the Papal States which were annexed into Italy by force. The Catholic Church maintains sovereignty its last vestige of temporal power - with the Vatican as a city-state. Historically, the church, Catholic and Protestant, has craved temporal power.

The idea of secularism rose because of Christianity (because of clerics - chiefly the Popes - arrogating temporal power to themselves) not because of Christians.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #242 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 10:01pm tallowood wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 8:00pm: "The statement is truism because ALL homo sapience including atheists are religious" (c) K9 True only if nothing means anything or anything means everything... Such as using the term French to mean human.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #243 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 10:54pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 7:41pm:

there are no recommendations in the NT to rule the world, for political power.
i have no idea about the vatican - it ain't in the bible.

salt is in the sea too, maybe its about whales ?? I don't agree with your thought here

i'm ok with mimes, but sure agree with you about some buskers. terrible noise.

You don't need to know much about the Vatican to understand that it represents the last vestige of Christian temporal power. It's likely the princes of the church look forward to the day when they regain temporal power.

Salt... That's the thing with metaphors (particularly ancient ones), they can mean whatever the bloody hell you want them to mean.

Buskers... most of them can't sing for shite... We had a bloody flautist outside for a few days last week... Another week of it and he'd have been a street act as hotdog on a stick.

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Soren

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #244 - Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 11:50pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 9:59pm:

The Vatican is the rump of the Papal States which were annexed into Italy by force. The Catholic Church maintains sovereignty its last vestige of temporal power - with the Vatican as a city-state.

That sounds grand but, really, it is only a palace, a basilica, a museum/library, a couple of other buildings and parks on less than half a square km. About the size of the Botancal Gardens in Sydney, with only slghtly less open space. With about 800 citizens.
The Vatican does not have room even for the embassies of other countries to the Vatican. For a rump it looks decidedly boney, if you ask me ...

Quote:

Historically, the church, Catholic and Protestant, has craved temporal power.

The idea of secularism rose because of Christianity (because of clerics - chiefly the Popes - arrogating temporal power to themselves) not because of Christians.

The very concept of secularity, the separaton of temporal and spiritual authority, is a Chrstian idea, found in no other traditon. None.

The French kings, who ultimately succeeded in establishing absolute temporal power, had the title of "most christian majesty".
In England, Henry II had the Archbshop of Canterbury killed. HenryVIII broke with the popes over temporal authority. Both remained christan as have all Englsh monarchs since.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #245 - Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 12:09am

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 11:50pm:

That sounds grand but, really, it is only a palace, a basilica, a museum/library, a couple of other buildings and parks on less than half a square km. About the size of the Botancal Gardens in Sydney, with only slghtly less open space. With about 800 citizens.
The Vatican does not have room even for the embassies of other countries to the Vatican. For a rump it looks decidedly boney, if you ask me ...

Sprint's original assertion was that historically christians did not want temporal power... The Vatican is the last vestige of the church's temporal power.

Soren wrote on Jun 2^nd, 2009 at 11:50pm:

The very concept of secularity, the separaton of temporal and spiritual authority, is a Chrstian idea, found in no other traditon. None.

The French kings, who ultimately succeeded in establishing absolute temporal power, had the title of "most christian majesty".
In England, Henry II had the Archbshop of Canterbury killed. HenryVIII broke with the popes over temporal authority. Both remained christan as have all Englsh monarchs since.

Henry VIII declared himself the Supreme Head of the Church of England and demanded all his subjects swear allegiance to himself as the head of the Anglican Church... He didn't separate Church and state... So, Henry VIII not a secularist at all...

To this day, the Church of England is not disestablished.

The great modern secularists, America's founding fathers, were not Christians.

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« Last Edit: Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 12:31am by NorthOfNorth »

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40780 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #246 - Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:07am So where in the NT does it say for christians to rule ?? christians have been the instigators of freedom and demoracys you all know, you live in a country bound by christian ideals, as is america.
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secularist

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #247 - Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:07am:

christians have been the instigators of freedom and demoracys

you all know, you live in a country bound by christian ideals, as is america.

hi, first post.

The usa is not bound by christian ideals whatsoever, and the instigators the usa, the only real secular democracy on the planet, where NOT influenced by christianity or christian values but the opposite. The founding fathers created a country with no control over religion and vice versa and they didnt do it because of their christianity, for those of them that were christian they did so in spite of it.

Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin etc were anything but christians.

As for this country, you may be closer to the truth historically but the not these days. less than 10% of people attend attend church, i dont see how its possible to say that we are 'bound' by christian ideals. We are clearly bound by secular ideals of fairness, i mean when is the last time a witch was burned or an atheist or adulterer were stoned to death.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:07am:

So where in the NT does it say for christians to rule ??

I dont know but all the kings and queens of europe were divinely appointed by god.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40780 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #248 - Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 1:57pm Hi secularist, Welcome here and well done on your first post.
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secularist New Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 10	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #249 - Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 2:06pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 1:57pm: Hi secularist, Welcome here and well done on your first post. thanks mate
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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #250 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:11pm

hello 'secularist',

Not a veiled moslem are you?

What a lot of shiite you have spouted.

secularist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:07am:

christians have been the instigators of freedom and demoracys

you all know, you live in a country bound by christian ideals, as is america.

hi, first post.

The usa is not bound by christian ideals whatsoever
, and the instigators the usa, the only real secular democracy on the planet, where NOT influenced by christianity or christian values but the opposite.
The founding fathers created a country with no control over religion and vice versa and they didnt do it because of their christianity, for those of them that were christian they did so in spite of it.

Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin etc were anything but christians.

What poppycock!

".....Thomas Paine...."I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."...."The moral duty of man consists in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation toward all his creatures. That seeing, as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other."

.....[Thomas] Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public...He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

......Benjamin Franklin....Below are the words from his autobiography: [I believe] That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service of God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal."

source....

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians or Secular Humanists: a Refutation of Steven Morris
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #251 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:24pm

Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America

http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html

Name of Signer State Religious Affiliation
Charles Carroll Maryland Catholic
Samuel Huntington Connecticut Congregationalist
Roger Sherman Connecticut Congregationalist
William Williams Connecticut Congregationalist
Oliver Wolcott Connecticut Congregationalist
Lyman Hall Georgia Congregationalist
Samuel Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist
John Hancock Massachusetts Congregationalist
Josiah Bartlett New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Whipple New Hampshire Congregationalist
William Ellery Rhode Island Congregationalist
John Adams Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
Robert Treat Paine Massachusetts Congregationalist; Unitarian
George Walton Georgia Episcopalian
John Penn North Carolina Episcopalian
George Ross Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Thomas Heyward Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Thomas Lynch Jr. South Carolina Episcopalian
Arthur Middleton South Carolina Episcopalian
Edward Rutledge South Carolina Episcopalian
Francis Lightfoot Lee Virginia Episcopalian
Richard Henry Lee Virginia Episcopalian
George Read Delaware Episcopalian
Caesar Rodney Delaware Episcopalian
Samuel Chase Maryland Episcopalian
William Paca Maryland Episcopalian
Thomas Stone Maryland Episcopalian
Elbridge Gerry Massachusetts Episcopalian
Francis Hopkinson New Jersey Episcopalian
Francis Lewis New York Episcopalian
Lewis Morris New York Episcopalian
William Hooper North Carolina Episcopalian
Robert Morris Pennsylvania Episcopalian
John Morton Pennsylvania Episcopalian
Stephen Hopkins Rhode Island Episcopalian
Carter Braxton Virginia Episcopalian
Benjamin Harrison Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Nelson Jr. Virginia Episcopalian
George Wythe Virginia Episcopalian
Thomas Jefferson Virginia Episcopalian (Deist)
Benjamin Franklin Pennsylvania Episcopalian (Deist)
Button Gwinnett Georgia Episcopalian; Congregationalist
James Wilson Pennsylvania Episcopalian; Presbyterian
Joseph Hewes North Carolina Quaker, Episcopalian
George Clymer Pennsylvania Quaker, Episcopalian
Thomas McKean Delaware Presbyterian
Matthew Thornton New Hampshire Presbyterian
Abraham Clark New Jersey Presbyterian
John Hart New Jersey Presbyterian
Richard Stockton New Jersey Presbyterian
John Witherspoon New Jersey Presbyterian
William Floyd New York Presbyterian
Philip Livingston
New York Presbyterian
James Smith Pennsylvania Presbyterian
George Taylor Pennsylvania Presbyterian
Benjamin Rush Pennsylvania Presbyterian

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Churches oppose Islamic school Reply #252 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:30pm Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:24pm: Religious Affiliation of the Founding Fathers of the United States of America http://www.adherents.com/gov/Founding_Fathers_Religion.html And where would they have got that information from? Their parents' affiliation? Their Baptismal certificates?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #253 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:32pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:11pm:

What poppycock!

".....Thomas Paine...."I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."...."The moral duty of man consists in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation toward all his creatures. That seeing, as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other."

.....[Thomas] Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public...He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

......Benjamin Franklin....Below are the words from his autobiography: [I believe] That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service of God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal."

Deism is not Christianity.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #254 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:42pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:32pm:

Deism is not Christianity.

Deism is a lot closer to Christianity, and vice versa, than secularism.

A Christian can be a deist.

Dictionary,
deism = = belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. Compare with theism.

And secularism / humanism is a lot closer to atheism.

Dictionary,
humanism = = a rationalistic outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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