Australian Politics Forum - Churches oppose Islamic school

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #255 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:51pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:32pm:

Deism is not Christianity.

Deism is a lot closer to Christianity, and vice versa, than secularism.

A Christian can be a deist.

Dictionary,
deism = = belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. Compare with theism.

And secularism / humanism is a lot closer to atheism.

Dictionary,
humanism = = a rationalistic outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

Christianity posits an interventionist god and elaborates on this intervention on every page... Deism posits the exact opposite... Therefore a Christian cannot also be a deist... Or at least reconcile the two.

Deism has as much in common with Christianity as it does with Islam.

Nothing more can be said of god in Deism. He created the universe and that is that... Hardly anything like Christianity or any other religion... It's not even a religion itself... just a single statement which effectively nullifies the cult of god and religion altogether.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #256 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:01pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:51pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:42pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:32pm:

Deism is not Christianity.

Deism is a lot closer to Christianity, and vice versa, than secularism.

A Christian can be a deist.

Dictionary,
deism = = belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. Compare with theism.

And secularism / humanism is a lot closer to atheism.

Dictionary,
humanism = = a rationalistic outlook or system of thought attaching prime importance to human rather than divine or supernatural matters.

Christianity posits an interventionist god and elaborates on this intervention on every page... Deism posits the exact opposite... Therefore a Christian cannot also be a deist... Or at least reconcile the two.

helian,

I could ask, when was the last time any Christian 'identified' an intervention by their God, in human affairs?

Many Christians would be hard pressed to show such an intervention.

So it would seem that i could argue that many Christians could hold the views attributed to deism -
- 'belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene'
.

Whereas, i am a firm theist. Wink

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #257 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:17pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:01pm:

helian,

I could ask, when was the last time any Christian 'identified' an intervention by their God, in human affairs?

Many Christians would be hard pressed to show such an intervention.

So it would seem that i could argue that many Christians could hold the views attributed to deism -
- 'belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene'
.

Whereas, i am a firm theist. Wink

Well, if they don't believe in an interventionist god, then they are not Christians... The fact that Christians pray to their god implies that they expect they are being heard and that god may intervene. Prayer to a non-interventionist god is pointless.

No Christian believes that their god will never intervene in human affairs.

When was the last time any Christian 'identified' an intervention by their God? ... (for example) The last time a Christian bought a piece of toast or a cat's furball on ebay because the face or shape of Jesus has 'miraculously' appeared on them.

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« Last Edit: Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:32pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #258 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:06pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:17pm:

No Christian believes that their god will never intervene in human affairs.

When was the last time any Christian 'identified' an intervention by their God? ... (for example) The last time a Christian bought a piece of toast or a cat's furball on ebay because the face or shape of Jesus has 'miraculously' appeared on them.

Christians bought a piece of toast, bought a piece of toast!!?

Why don't Christians read their Bible, instead of buying furballs on Ebay?

Duh

The people of Israel.

Deuteronomy 30:1
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:

Isaiah 11:11
And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

Jeremiah 29:13
And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.
14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

Jeremiah 31:10
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Jeremiah 23:7
Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt;
8 But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

There is a God in Israel.

An interventionist God.

There is a God, who will bring all nations against Israel, against God's first-born.

Exodus 4:22
And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Isaiah 66

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #259 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:31pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:06pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 1:17pm:

No Christian believes that their god will never intervene in human affairs.

When was the last time any Christian 'identified' an intervention by their God? ... (for example) The last time a Christian bought a piece of toast or a cat's furball on ebay because the face or shape of Jesus has 'miraculously' appeared on them.

Christians bought a piece of toast, bought a piece of toast!!?

Why don't Christians read their Bible, instead of buying furballs on Ebay?

Duh

All believers in intervention, like those who queue to view a weeping statue of Jesus or the Virgin Mary... Or the lame, sick and crippled who make a pilgrimage to Lourdes asking for intervention against the ravages of disease... Or those who claim AIDS is god's vengeance against the unrighteous... Or those who declare the hand of god in action with the shooting dead of Dr Tiller... Or those who wear a crucifix to protect them from evil... Or those who warn us to read the Bible and be good Christians lest we incur the wrath of god.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #260 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:46pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:31pm:

All believers in intervention, like those who queue to view a weeping statue of Jesus or the Virgin Mary... Or the lame, sick and crippled who make a pilgrimage to Lourdes asking for intervention against the ravages of disease... Or those who claim AIDS is god's vengeance against the unrighteous... Or those who declare the hand of god in action with the shooting dead of Dr Tiller... Or those who wear a crucifix to protect them from evil... Or those who warn us to read the Bible and be good Christians lest we incur the wrath of god.

helian,

You forgot to mention the scoffers, among the baddies.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #261 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:49pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:46pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:31pm:

All believers in intervention, like those who queue to view a weeping statue of Jesus or the Virgin Mary... Or the lame, sick and crippled who make a pilgrimage to Lourdes asking for intervention against the ravages of disease... Or those who claim AIDS is god's vengeance against the unrighteous... Or those who declare the hand of god in action with the shooting dead of Dr Tiller... Or those who wear a crucifix to protect them from evil... Or those who warn us to read the Bible and be good Christians lest we incur the wrath of god.

helian,

You forgot to mention the scoffers, among the baddies.

Yes, of course... Fundamentalist Christians being vindictive at heart.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #262 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:58pm

helian,

No vindictiveness at all.

You [and anyone else, even ex-muslims], can be 'Israel', if you want to be.

Open your heart to God.

Seek him.

Or love this world, and perish.

Each one of us, is a type of 'gatekeeper', WE CHOOSE our destiny.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #263 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 3:04pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 2:58pm:

helian,

No vindictiveness at all.

You [and anyone else, even ex-muslims], can be 'Israel', if you want to be.

Open your heart to God.

Seek him.

Or love this world, and perish.

Each one of us, is a type of 'gatekeeper', WE CHOOSE our destiny.

Ezekiel 33:11
Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

Good old Ezekiel... to whom the 'voices' demanded he sleep on his right side for 390 days, then on his left side for 40 days... textbook schizophrenic delusional commands.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #264 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 3:16pm

helian,

Yes of course helian, all of those OT prophets, they weren't real prophets.

They were all just delusional schizophrenics.
/sarc off

I'm with you helian, logic and reason can explain all circumstances,
....except when you are in conversation with the arrogantly ignorant.

No conversation is possible with ppl who have closed minds...

In the age of man, before modern science [before the discovery of radio waves], such a conclusion [as the one presented next] would have been a logical, and a reasonable one....

Quote:

I don't believe in radio waves.

People tell me that those radio waves are everywhere, all around us!

But when i step outside, i can't see em.

Therefore, they obviously don't exist.

And anyone who say's that radio waves do exist, is a retard.

at...
"Multiculti - preserve cultural id amid enemies"
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1242606209/28#28

helian,

There are still lots of things in this 'reality', which are beyond our ken.

Open your mind, to the 'impossible'.

And learn new things.

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« Last Edit: Jun 4^th, 2009 at 3:35pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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secularist

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #265 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 4:06pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:11pm:

hello 'secularist',

Not a veiled moslem are you?

What a lot of shiite you have spouted.

secularist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 1:52pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jun 3^rd, 2009 at 8:07am:

christians have been the instigators of freedom and demoracys

you all know, you live in a country bound by christian ideals, as is america.

hi, first post.

The usa is not bound by christian ideals whatsoever
, and the instigators the usa, the only real secular democracy on the planet, where NOT influenced by christianity or christian values but the opposite.
The founding fathers created a country with no control over religion and vice versa and they didnt do it because of their christianity, for those of them that were christian they did so in spite of it.

Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin etc were anything but christians.

What poppycock!

".....Thomas Paine...."I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."...."The moral duty of man consists in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation toward all his creatures. That seeing, as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other."

.....[Thomas] Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public...He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

......Benjamin Franklin....Below are the words from his autobiography: [I believe] That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service of God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal."

source....

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians or Secular Humanists: a Refutation of Steven Morris
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/

they believed in god, and....?

how does that in any way contradict what i said?

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #266 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 4:38pm

secularist wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 4:06pm:

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 12:11pm:

What poppycock!

".....Thomas Paine...."I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life."...."The moral duty of man consists in imitating the moral goodness and beneficence of God manifested in the creation toward all his creatures. That seeing, as we daily do, the goodness of God to all men, it is an example calling upon all men to practice the same toward each other."

.....[Thomas] Jefferson was always reluctant to reveal his religious beliefs to the public...He was raised as an Anglican, but was influenced by English deists. "Question with boldness even the existence of God; because if there be one, he must more approve the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear.

......Benjamin Franklin....Below are the words from his autobiography: [I believe] That there is one God, who made all things. That he governs the world by his providence. That he ought to be worshiped by adoration, prayer, and thanksgiving. But that the most acceptable service of God is doing good to man. That the soul is immortal."

source....

The Founding Fathers Were NOT Christians or Secular Humanists: a Refutation of Steven Morris
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/

they believed in god, and....?

how does that in any way contradict what i said?

Yeah, perhaps the founding fathers of the USA were card carrying atheists ???

I don't think so.

But that is the inference, that you are trying to PEDDLE here.

Which is clearly a lie.

Quote:

.......the instigators the usa, the only real secular democracy on the planet, where NOT influenced by christianity or christian values but the opposite.

What poppycock!

The Founders As Christians
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=78

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #267 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 6:52pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 3:16pm:

helian,

Yes of course helian, all of those OT prophets, they weren't real prophets.

They were all just delusional schizophrenics.
/sarc off

I'm with you helian, logic and reason can explain all circumstances,
....except when you are in conversation with the arrogantly ignorant.

No conversation is possible with ppl who have closed minds...

In the age of man, before modern science [before the discovery of radio waves], such a conclusion [as the one presented next] would have been a logical, and a reasonable one....

Quote:

I don't believe in radio waves.

People tell me that those radio waves are everywhere, all around us!

But when i step outside, i can't see em.

Therefore, they obviously don't exist.

And anyone who say's that radio waves do exist, is a retard.

helian,

There are still lots of things in this 'reality', which are beyond our ken.

Open your mind, to the 'impossible'.

And learn new things.

Wake up and smell your own bullshit.

You think you're the only one who's had a thought about these things?

Arrogantly ignorant... what a twerp.

I know you think you're 'special' because you've had a few 'experiences'... Here's the tip... They're common... but most people get over them before they start thinking they're an old testament prophet. That's sorta what you think of yourself (not so) secretly, isn't it Yadda... That you're 'chosen'.

And open your mind to the possibility that ancient people misunderstood the natural processes and disorders of the mind. Read some accounts of sufferers of schizophrenia and open your mind to the commonness of religious imagery and torments they reveal, then read Ezekiel...

Here's one to start with... 'The Rock Pillow' by Lynne Folkard

Quote:

Staggering along through the night with my overnight bag, I made my way back to the trucking station. I was hallucinating badly again; I could see bodies and blood spread over the footpath and road in front of me. I felt as though I was walking through a horrific accident. The smell of blood and human flesh was on my own skin and made me flinch.

The voice chanted a psalm I had learnt as a child. 'Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me.' He was laughing as he said these words over inside my brain. I agonised about why my voice had done this terrible injury to people.

She was tormented by a voice that manifested as a monk.

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« Last Edit: Jun 4^th, 2009 at 8:06pm by NorthOfNorth »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #268 - Jun 4^th, 2009 at 6:58pm

Yadda wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 4:38pm:

Yeah, perhaps the founding fathers of the USA were card carrying atheists ???

I don't think so.

But that is the inference, that you are trying to PEDDLE here.

Which is clearly a lie.

Quote:

.......the instigators the usa, the only real secular democracy on the planet, where NOT influenced by christianity or christian values but the opposite.

What poppycock!

What their baptismal certificates record of the founding fathers means nothing about their beliefs... Baptism was almost universal in Europe and America.

They were more influenced by the ideals of liberty from European monarchs and established churches than Christianity.

And you better believe that every monarch, aristocrat and established church in Europe wanted the American experiment (government for, of and by the people) to fail... lest its success infect the peoples of Europe.... which ultimately it did.

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Yadda

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Re: Churches oppose Islamic school
Reply #269 - Jun 5^th, 2009 at 9:56am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jun 4^th, 2009 at 6:52pm:

Wake up and smell your own bullshit.

You think you're the only one who's had a thought about these things?

Arrogantly ignorant... what a twerp.

LOL

Quote:

I know you think you're 'special' because you've had a few 'experiences'... Here's the tip... They're common... but most people get over them before they start thinking they're an old testament prophet. That's sorta what you think of yourself (not so) secretly, isn't it Yadda... That you're 'chosen'.

No.

I'm like all of you other ppl.

In fact, we are all in the 'same boat'.

I am no prophet.

And i have not been given any 'commission', by the big guy.

I have had 3 'visions', since 1972, ...the last one late in 2006.
....so it always seems to be 'a long stretch between drinks', in my experience.

All three 'visions' were of a personal nature [i took the first 2 as 'warnings', relating specifically to my own faults, and salvation. and the last one, i took as an unexpected 'healing'.].

I regard myself merely as a 'witness' of this, a 'witness' of my own life, a 'witness' of my own experiences, and faults,
......just like the 6 billion other souls on this little planet.

And i am not chosen, i am not special.

But i choose God.

And i choose to be reconciled to him.

Why?

Because i know, that God loves me.

That is what God has shown, to me, his love, for this flawed person.

Quote:

And open your mind to the possibility that ancient people misunderstood the natural processes and disorders of the mind. Read some accounts of sufferers of schizophrenia and open your mind to the commonness of religious imagery and torments they reveal, then read Ezekiel...

Here's one to start with... 'The Rock Pillow' by Lynne Folkard

Quote:

Staggering along through the night with my overnight bag, I made my way back to the trucking station. I was hallucinating badly again; I could see bodies and blood spread over the footpath and road in front of me. I felt as though I was walking through a horrific accident. The smell of blood and human flesh was on my own skin and made me flinch.

The voice chanted a psalm I had learnt as a child. 'Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for thou art with me.' He was laughing as he said these words over inside my brain. I agonised about why my voice had done this terrible injury to people.

She was tormented by a voice that manifested as a monk.

Strange that, how many ppl believe that our thoughts are supposedly our own, but 'hallucinating', oh, that is 'external', and unreal.

Well, hallucinations are probably 'unreal'.

Certainly hallucinations have no 'traction' in this 'reality', do they?

But these prophecies about Israel [Jews] in the world, are not hallucinations,

Deuteronomy 28:37
And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.

1 Kings 9:7
Then will I cut off Israel out of the land which I have given them; and this house, which I have hallowed for my name, will I cast out of my sight; and Israel shall be a proverb and a byword among all people:
8 And at this house, which is high, every one that passeth by it shall be astonished, and shall hiss; and they shall say, Why hath the LORD done thus unto this land, and to this house?
9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

Israel are punished by their God.

But not cast off.

The children of Israel, are God's witnesses, against mankind.

Against the wickedness of man.

In the bible, Israel are a 'type', for the whole of mankind.

Physical Israel, are the first-fruits of the 'harvest' [i believe].

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« Last Edit: Jun 5^th, 2009 at 11:07am by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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