Australian Politics Forum - Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof

mozzaok

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #30 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 4:09pm

I agree wit Mr Hunt, that people should be encouraged to express their views openly, but my issue with Senator Fielding's approach was the dishonest way he presented himself as being open minded and that he was not an already avowed GW skeptic.

He should have been upfront about his stance, and said, I am a skeptic, I am impressed by denialist arguments, now see if you can change my mind.

We have got to the unforunate position where the denialists have been so successful with their campaigns of promoting confusion, and their dissemination of misinformation, that we are now seeing an equally unreliable group who are promoting Global Warming alarmism using similiar techniques.

That we even need to see PR firms brought in, to push the Global Warming side of the debate, shows how successful the denialist have become, and does not inspire confidence that they will do anything but undermine the credibility that real scientists have struggled to maintain throughout this whole messy saga.

If a projected warming range is stated as being 4 to 11 degrees Fahrenheit, then the PR folks will focus on the upper limit as if it is a given, when it is a worst case scenario, then they will leave out the Fahrenheit bit, and let people assume it is Celsius, and that type of deceptive ommission, to promote alarmism will just reinforce the denialists in their belief that the whole argument is wildly exaggerated.

I know it was the denialists whose successes inspired this kind of response, but it is not a worthy excuse to justify allowing PR bullartists to further confuse an issue already way too muddied with hype and hyperbole.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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skippy

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #31 - Jun 20^th, 2009 at 4:11pm

So the fossil fuel industry also have scientists on the payroll, no surprises there, anybody trying to prove a point will employ people who LOOK LIKE they know what they're talking about to try and convince simple people like Fielding and those in agreement with him.
The oil industry has been doing it for years, what I'm surprised about are the dips hits who buy it.

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Grendel

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #32 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 11:48am

ROTFLMAO

I already explained this.

Quote:

I agree wit Mr Hunt, that people should be encouraged to express their views openly, but my issue with Senator Fielding's approach was the dishonest way he presented himself as being open minded and that he was not an already avowed GW skeptic.

The AGW camp equate scepticism with denial. if you are a sceptic you are a denialist. This is what Fielding is saying he is not. The fact you people abuse the terminology is what the problem is.
Quote:

skep·tic also scep·tic (skěp'tĭk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

Quote:

skep·ti·cism also scep·ti·cism (skěp'tĭ-sĭz'əm)
n.

1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy
1. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
2. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.

Fielding is wrong... he is skeptical... he is uncertain... he is questioning in order to acquire greater knowledge and certainty. But using your definition and bias... he is right... he is not a denialist.

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pjb05

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #33 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 12:09pm

Quote:

So the fossil fuel industry also have scientists on the payroll, no surprises there, anybody trying to prove a point will employ people who LOOK LIKE they know what they're talking about to try and convince simple people like Fielding and those in agreement with him.
The oil industry has been doing it for years, what I'm surprised about are the dips hits who buy it.

Not much of an argument. There is a huge vested interest in promoting AGW. The holy grail of researchers is to get funding. Most of this comes from governments and it's 'problems' that attract funding.

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skippy

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #34 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 2:20pm

pjb05 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 12:09pm:

Quote:

So the fossil fuel industry also have scientists on the payroll, no surprises there, anybody trying to prove a point will employ people who LOOK LIKE they know what they're talking about to try and convince simple people like Fielding and those in agreement with him.
The oil industry has been doing it for years, what I'm surprised about are the dips hits who buy it.

Not much of an argument. There is a huge vested interest in promoting AGW. The holy grail of researchers is to get funding. Most of this comes from governments and it's 'problems' that attract funding.

I think you'll find the fossil fuel industry are the ones who have a huge vested interest in maintaining the status quo.
Last time I checked 98% of transport used fossil fuels.As well as electricity supplies ect ect.

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« Last Edit: Jun 21^st, 2009 at 2:45pm by N/A »

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mozzaok

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #35 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 3:27pm

Grendel wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 11:48am:

ROTFLMAO

I already explained this.

Yes, and you were wrong then, and still are

Quote:

I agree wit Mr Hunt, that people should be encouraged to express their views openly, but my issue with Senator Fielding's approach was the dishonest way he presented himself as being open minded and that he was not an already avowed GW skeptic.

The AGW camp equate scepticism with denial. if you are a sceptic you are a denialist. This is what Fielding is saying he is not. The fact you people abuse the terminology is what the problem is.
Quote:

skep·tic also scep·tic (skěp'tĭk)
n.
1. One who instinctively or habitually doubts, questions, or disagrees with assertions or generally accepted conclusions.

Quote:

skep·ti·cism also scep·ti·cism (skěp'tĭ-sĭz'əm)
n.

1. A doubting or questioning attitude or state of mind; dubiety. See Synonyms at uncertainty.
2. Philosophy
1. The ancient school of Pyrrho of Elis that stressed the uncertainty of our beliefs in order to oppose dogmatism.
2. A methodology based on an assumption of doubt with the aim of acquiring approximate or relative certainty.

Fielding is wrong... he is skeptical... he is uncertain... he is questioning in order to acquire greater knowledge and certainty. But using your definition and bias... he is right... he is not a denialist.

Unfortunately Fielding does not agree with you, in his thirty second sound byte, going into the meeting, he claimed two or three times, that "I am not a skeptic"

I do not believe him

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof Reply #36 - Jun 21^st, 2009 at 6:32pm I'm sorry... you still seem to be having comprehension difficulties... Or did you just ignore what I actually wrote... as usual?
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muso

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #37 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:53pm

I'm back. I'll take a look at this twaddle that Fielding has been quoting tomorrow maybe. Richard Lindzen and Willie Soon - yeah that would be right. What kind of 'Climate Confusionalists' are they anyway? Answer - the best money can buy.

Richard Lindzen has also long been a spokesman for tobacco companies. He's a professional skeptic in the "Smoking is good for your health" brigade. I wonder how he sleeps at night.

...............Come to the dark side.

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muso

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #38 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:57pm

pjb05 wrote on Jun 21^st, 2009 at 12:09pm:

Quote:

So the fossil fuel industry also have scientists on the payroll, no surprises there, anybody trying to prove a point will employ people who LOOK LIKE they know what they're talking about to try and convince simple people like Fielding and those in agreement with him.
The oil industry has been doing it for years, what I'm surprised about are the dips hits who buy it.

Not much of an argument. There is a huge vested interest in promoting AGW. The holy grail of researchers is to get funding. Most of this comes from governments and it's 'problems' that attract funding.

There is a far greater vested interest in slowing down action on alternative energy, and I think you know that. Most of the driving force is small business these days. Big Oil and Big Coal don't seem to do too much of that nowadays - at least not publically.

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pjb05

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #39 - Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:58pm

muso wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:53pm:

I'm back. I'll take a look at this twaddle that Fielding has been quoting tomorrow maybe. Richard Lindzen and Willie Soon - yeah that would be right. What kind of 'Climate Confusionalists' are they anyway? Answer - the best money can buy.

Richard Lindzen has also long been a spokesman for tobacco companies. He's a professional skeptic in the "Smoking is good for your health" brigade. I wonder how he sleeps at night.

...............Come to the dark side.

Don't you make a living out of AGW Muso?

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muso

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Re: Thirty years of warmer temperatures go poof
Reply #40 - Jun 24^th, 2009 at 9:10am

pjb05 wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:58pm:

muso wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2009 at 3:53pm:

I'm back. I'll take a look at this twaddle that Fielding has been quoting tomorrow maybe. Richard Lindzen and Willie Soon - yeah that would be right. What kind of 'Climate Confusionalists' are they anyway? Answer - the best money can buy.

Richard Lindzen has also long been a spokesman for tobacco companies. He's a professional skeptic in the "Smoking is good for your health" brigade. I wonder how he sleeps at night.

...............Come to the dark side.

Don't you make a living out of AGW Muso?

Nope. I work for the big bad chemical industry. If anything, I should be muddying the waters.

In industry we need a clear idea of the future, so that we can adapt.

Are there any Douglas Adams fans still around? I liken the 'confusionalist' view to his 'Joo Janta 200 Super Chromatic Peril-Sensitive Sunglasses'.

At the first hint of trouble they turn totally black and thus prevent you from seeing anything that might alarm you.

Most of the confusionalists don't really want to know the truth (many of them know the truth already). They just want to muddy the waters as much as possible. That's why I have coined the term 'confusionalist', because it reflects their true agenda.

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