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Christian honour killing (Read 3830 times)

Calanen

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #15 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 1:43pm

Quote:

Right and there's no such thing as a Muslim honour killing either.

Wrongo, mongo. You need to re-read your Islamic texts. If one goes to their book known as Reliance of the Traveller, A Classic Manual of Islamic Law by Ahmad ib Naquib al-Misri, you see the following:

The following are not subject to retaliation:

......(4) a father or mother (or their fathers or mothers) for killing their offspring, or offspring's offspring.'

the Chapter headed, Justice, at page 584.

Which is why muslims so often kill their wayward female relatives, there is no retaliation possible for doing that, meaning that they are in the clear. Incidentally, no retaliation is permitted for a muslim killing a non-muslim also, which is to be expected.

So why would they kill a woman for a crime of honour, well the answers lie in the Koran and the hadiths:

Quran- 4:15 “If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.”

Quran-24:2 “The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication—flog each of them with hundred stripes: Let no compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the last day.”

Quran-17:32 “ Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

Quran-33:33 “stay quietly in your houses, and make not a dazzling display.”

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Sahih Al-Bukhari Vol 2. pg 1009; and Sahih Muslim Vol 2. pg 65:
Hadhrat Abdullah ibne Abbaas (Radiallahu Anhu) narrates the lecture that Hadhrat Umar (Radiallaahu Anhu) delivered whilst sitting on the pulpit of Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). Hadhrat Umar (Radiallahu Anhu) said, "Verily, Allah sent Muhammad (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) with the truth, and revealed the Quran upon him. The verse regarding the stoning of the adulterer/ess was from amongst the verse revealed (in the Quraan). We read it, secured it and understood it. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) stoned and we stoned after him. I fear that with the passage of time a person might say, ‘We do not find mention of stoning in the Book of Allah and thereby go astray by leaving out an obligation revealed by Allah. Verily, the stoning of a adulterer/ress is found in the Quraan and is the truth, if the witnesses are met or there is a pregnancy or confession."

Al-Bukhari:
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “Whoever guarantees me that he will guard his chastity, I will guarantee him Paradise”.

Al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawud, An-Nisa’i and others:
Abu Hurayrah reports that the Messenger of Allah said, “No one commits adultery while still remaining a believer, for faith is more precious unto Allah than such an evil act!” In another version, it is stated, “When a person commits adultery he casts away from his neck the bond that ties him to Islam; if, however, he repents, Allah will accept his repentance”.

Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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Calanen

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #16 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 1:49pm

So once a woman (or more rarely) a man, has committed these infractions of Allah's laws, of course they must be killed. It is what Allan the Moon God requires.

So it's not really an honor killing. It's more of an Islamic Killing, carried out by male relatives who have decided to be Allan's enforcers.

As stated in this Amnesty Report:

Among statutory laws, it is particularly two laws
which disadvantage women in Pakistan, both
introduced in the name of the Islamisation of law.
The 1990 law of Qisas and Diyat covers offences
relating to physical injury, manslaughter and
murder. The law reconceptualized the offences in
such a way that they are not directed against the
legal order of the state but against the victim. A
judge in the Supreme Court explained: “In Islam,
the individual victim or his heirs retain from the
beginning to the end entire control over the matter
including the crime and the criminal. They may not
report it, they may not prosecute the offender.
They may abandon prosecution of their free will.
They may pardon the criminal at any stage before
the execution of the sentence. They may accept
monetary or other compensation to purge the crime
and the criminal. They may compromise. They
may accept qisas [punishment equal to theoffence] from the criminal. The state cannot
impede but must do its best to assist them in
achieving their object and in appropriately
exercising their rights.”9
This reconceptualization of offences has sent the
signal that murders of family members are a family
affair and that prosecution and judicial redress are
not inevitable but may be negotiated.
The law of Qisas and Diyat prescribes that the
death penalty may not be imposed for murder as
either qisas [punishment equal to the offence
committed] or tazir [discretionary punishment,
when the evidence is insufficient to impose qisas]
when the wali [heir] of the victim is a direct
descendant of the offender. In such cases the
court may only impose a maximum of 14 years’
imprisonment. Thus, if a man murders his wife with
whom he has a child, who then is the victim’s heir
and the descendent of the offender, he can at most
be sentenced to 14 years’ imprisonment.
Men who have killed their wives or daughters for
bringing shame on them could also in the past find
relief under the provision of "grave and sudden
provocation". Section 300(1) of the Pakistan Penal
Code (PPC) read: “Culpable homicide is not
murder if the offender, whilst deprived of the
power of self-control by grave and sudden
provocation, causes the death of the person who
gave the provocation...” The punishment for
manslaughter is imprisonment, for murder it is
death.
8Simi Kamal, Asma Khan: A study of the
interplay of formal and customary laws on women,
vol.I, 1997, p.ii.
9Federation of Pakistan through Secr. Min.
of Law

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA33/018/1999/en/9fe83c27-e0f1-11dd-be3...

Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #17 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 2:29pm

Calanen, extra-judicial executions are _NOT_ permitted in Islam, and I think you well know it.

Through all your ranting and raving, you didn't manage to bring a single Islamic text that even remotely hints at it.

Yes adultery is a capital offense in Islam, but that's got nothing to do with a man taking the law into his own hands and killing a relative who has committed adultery, or worse just been suspected of it.

sprint,

Quote:

I don't see any honour in killing a woman who has been raped.

Neither do I, and nowhere have I stated anything even remotely close to that. The fact you're resorting to such wild fantasies indicates you know your ramblings are worth squat.

Grendel,

Quote:

I know about Italians and other latinos who have done such things in the past but you don't see it happening these days with the frequency it happens in Islamic groups.

According to women's rights groups in South America it still occurs quite frequently, and according to the U.N several South American countries still have laws that diminish responsibility for "crimes of passion".

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #18 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 2:44pm

Abu - what do these mean ?

Quote:

Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira: A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.
(See also Bukhari: Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195.)

Sahi Muslim No. 4206:
“A woman came to the prophet and asked for purification by seeking punishment. He told her to go away and seek God’s forgiveness. She persisted four times and admitted she was pregnant. He told her to wait until she had given birth. Then he said that the Muslim community should wait until she had weaned her child. When the day arrived for the child to take solid food, Muhammad handed the child over to the community. And when he had given command over her and she was put in a hole up to her breast, he ordered the people to stone her. Khalid b. al-Walid came forward with a stone which he threw at her head, and when the blood spurted on her face he cursed her.”

Modern Classic Right Wing

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #19 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:17pm

Quote:

Abu - what do these mean ?

Muhammad (pbuh) was the head of state, and also of the judiciary (in the city-state of Medinah, which is where these events occured), and he ordered those sentences according to the law of the state, not according to the whims of an angry or jealous relative. Note that in both cases the guilty parties confessed to their crimes, and that in both cases he tried to avert them from bearing witness against themselves.

As more of the Arabian peninsula came under Islam, and new city-states were added to the Islamic empire, Muhammad (pbuh) set up judiciaries in all the new cities and regions, and required that laws be enacted by the state, not by roaming vigilantes, with proper due process. It's quite clear from all Islamic texts that this is the case. And clear stipulations are made about witnesses and what is required for convictions. Not a single Islamic text hints at just murdering your sister because she spoke to a man at the door. Anyone committing such an act is nothing but a brutal murderer and his actions have no sanction in Islam in the slightest possible way.

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Grendel

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #20 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:32pm

Thousands of Women Killed for Family "Honor"Hillary Mayell
for National Geographic News

February 12, 2002

Hundreds, if not thousands, of women are murdered by their families each year in the name of family "honor." It's difficult to get precise numbers on the phenomenon of honor killing; the murders frequently go unreported, the perpetrators unpunished, and the concept of family honor justifies the act in the eyes of some societies.

Most honor killings occur in countries where the concept of women as a vessel of the family reputation predominates, said Marsha Freemen, director of International Women's Rights Action Watch at the Hubert Humphrey Institute of Public Affairs at the University of Minnesota.

Reports submitted to the United Nations Commission on Human Rights show that honor killings have occurred in Bangladesh, Great Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey, and Uganda. In countries not submitting reports to the UN, the practice was condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban government in Afghanistan, and has been reported in Iraq and Iran.

But while honor killings have elicited considerable attention and outrage, human rights activists argue that they should be regarded as part of a much larger problem of violence against women.

In India, for example, more than 5,000 brides die annually because their dowries are considered insufficient, according to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF). Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say.

"In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable," said Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch.

The practice, she said, "goes across cultures and across religions."

Complicity by other women in the family and the community strengthens the concept of women as property and the perception that violence against family members is a family and not a judicial issue.

"Females in the family—mothers, mothers-in-law, sisters, and cousins—frequently support the attacks. It's a community mentality," said Zaynab Nawaz, a program assistant for women's human rights at Amnesty International.

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Grendel

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #21 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:34pm

http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

Summary

"Honour" killings of women can be defined as acts of murder in which "a woman is killed for her actual or perceived immoral behavior." (Yasmeen Hassan, "The Fate of Pakistani Women," International Herald Tribune, May 25, 1999.) Such "immoral behavior" may take the form of marital infidelity, refusing to submit to an arranged marriage, demanding a divorce, flirting with or receiving phone calls from men, failing to serve a meal on time, or -- grotesquely -- "allowing herself" to be raped. In the Turkish province of Sanliurfa, one young woman's "throat was slit in the town square because a love ballad was dedicated to her over the radio." (Pelin Turgut, "'Honour' Killings Still Plague Turkish Province," The Toronto Star, May 14, 1998.)

Most "honour" killings of women occur in Muslim countries, the focus of this case study; but it is worth noting that no sanction for such murders is granted in Islamic religion or law. And the phenomenon is in any case a global one. According to Stephanie Nebehay, such killings "have been reported in Bangladesh, Britain, Brazil, Ecuador, Egypt, India, Israel, Italy, Jordan, Pakistan, Morocco, Sweden, Turkey and Uganda." Afghanistan, where the practice is condoned under the rule of the fundamentalist Taliban movement, can be added to the list, along with Iraq and Iran. (Nebehay, "'Honor Killings' of Women Said on Rise Worldwide," Reuters dispatch, April 7, 2000.)

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Christian honour killing Reply #22 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:36pm Now I'm betting that in those Western countries mentioned that the vast if not all killings are done by muslims.
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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Christian honour killing Reply #23 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:41pm Quote: Crimes of passion, which are treated extremely leniently in Latin America, are the same thing with a different name, some rights advocates say. Thank you very much
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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #24 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:46pm

thanks for that answer abu.
it seems we have many different versions of sharia law
it also seems mohammad did not agree with jesus example when asked about adultery.

most sharia include stoning, public beheadings, public amputations.
some are for adultery, some do not.

given mohammads linking with capital punishment, the korans belittlement of women and mohammads approval of assassainations, I am not surprised muslim women get murdered for this.

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Grendel

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #25 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 4:50pm

ROTFLMAO

Just an opinion Aboo wrong like yours.

You forgot to highlight some rights advocates say.

You see SOME... not all and not necessarily correct either.

Most rights advocates have an agenda and an axe to grind. Exaggeration is usually a tool of their trade. Take that as meaning lying.

Clearly a

premediated cold blooded murder

is not a crime of passion... by its very definition and roots from the French it has always been about

hot-blooded

murder.

You need to get deprogrammed or something.

Don't believe me?

Quote:

A crime of passion, in popular usage, refers to a crime in which the perpetrator commits a crime, especially assault or murder, against a spouse or other loved one because of sudden strong impulse such as a jealous rage or heartbreak rather than as a premeditated crime. A typical crime of passion, for example, might involve a husband who discovers his wife has made him a cuckold and proceeds to brutally batter or even kill his wife or the man with whom she was involved. Women (e.g. Ruth Ellis or Lorena Bobbitt), as well as men, can commit crimes of passion.

In the United States civil courts, a crime of passion is referred to as temporary insanity. This defense was first used by U.S. Congressman Daniel Sickles of New York in 1859 after he had killed his wife's lover, Philip Barton Key, but was most used during the 1940s and 1950s.

In some countries, notably France, crime passionnel (or crime of passion) was a valid defense during murder cases; during the 19th century, some cases could be a custodial sentence for two years for the murderer, while the spouse was dead; this ended in France as the Napoleonic code was updated in the 1970s so that a specific father's authority upon his whole family was over.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #26 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 5:09pm

Grendel,

Quote:

Exaggeration is usually a tool of their trade. Take that as meaning lying.

Right... but of course only the parts of the article which contradict your rant about Islam are lies and exaggeration right? The rest is all 100% fact... Thought so

When you discredit [selected portions of] your own article, you don't instill a lot of confidence in it [the rest of it].

sprint,

Quote:

t seems we have many different versions of sharia law

Nope not really. Adultery is a capital offence in Shari'ah law, according to all 4 main schools of jurisprudence. So we can say for the sake of this issue, Shari'ah is 100% consistent.

Quote:

it also seems mohammad did not agree with jesus example when asked about adultery.

Jesus (pbuh) never forbade capital punishment for adultery, even if we take the Biblical passage you're referring to, he simply highlighted how hypocritical those enacted the sentence were, since the entire society was corrupt, yet they were only implementing the punishment on a defenceless woman. Muhammad (pbuh) taught exactly the same thing, and implementing capital punishment on a corrupt and lewd society is NOT part of Islam.

Quote:

most sharia include stoning, public beheadings, public amputations.

Most shari'ah? Not quite sure what this statement stems from...

Quote:

given mohammads linking with capital punishment,

Many heads of state throughout history have ruled over states that implement capital punishment. What on earth it has to do with murdering women is beyond me. Is Barak Obama responsible for American's who kill their cheating wives, because he implements capital punishment? Sounds like a pretty unrelated issue to me... Capital punishment and jealous fits of rage have little if anything to do with one another, except that the one who murders his wife would obviously be sentenced to death for murder under a system with capital punishment.

Quote:

the korans belittlement of women

Leave that one for the waste basket.

Quote:

mohammads approval of assassainations,

Again, many many heads of state have approved the assassinations of their political opponents, inside and outside of their countries, including many of those you probably adore as great leaders... Most of the recent U.S presidents have authorised assassinations... and?

Still can't for the life of me see how it links to enraged husbands murdering their wives...

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Grendel

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #27 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 5:16pm

You know... you are a sad case.

I put the article there to give an indication of the countries where HKs take place.

I saw the bit you decided to highlight I even saw the bit you decided not to highlight... tsk, tsk, tsk.

I even explained it all to you.

You fail to accept the truth because you are brainwashed and cant accept the truth about your religion and others.

I'm not the one cherry picking, lying and deluded.

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Calanen

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #28 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 5:45pm

abu_rashid wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 2:29pm:

[quote]Calanen, extra-judicial executions are _NOT_ permitted in Islam, and I think you well know it.

But there is no retaliation permissible for extra judicial killings, so the sentence is lenient or, non-existent.

Quote:

Through all your ranting and raving, you didn't manage to bring a single Islamic text that even remotely hints at it.

I did. The leading text on Islamic law says there is no retaliation for a parent killing their child.

And why would you kill the child, for breaching Islamic law. Hence the honour killing. More obfuscation, but I expect no less ever. Which is why I put the quotes.

Finding the odd Christian that kills his wife (kills a daughter for moral crimes? Almost never) does not overshadow the legion honour killings in Islam. This stems from the secondary status of women, and the more lenient sentence provided for honor killings in Islam, reflected in the statutes of Islamic nations, and rooted in islamic law as I have set out.

Just more smoke and mirrors to try to say that a christian guy who finds his wife with someone else and kills them is somehow like Islamic honour killing - when Islamic honor killing is sanctified, enforced, and aided by the courts, police and the state of islamic regimes.

Even if there were miniscule numbers of honour killings by christians (which there are not) the christian states do not support or aid, or cover up or give more lenient sentences for them.

Quote:

ISLAM is a vicious [un-reformable] political tyranny, which has always murdered its critics, and it continues that practice even today.

Yadda

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abu_rashid

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Re: Christian honour killing
Reply #29 - Jul 23^rd, 2009 at 7:07pm

Quote:

But there is no retaliation permissible for extra judicial killings, so the sentence is lenient or, non-existent.

Yes there is, it is murder, and they'd be charged and tried for murder.

Quote:

I did. The leading text on Islamic law say...

Ummdat as-saalik is not the leading text on Islamic law. Don't know where on earth you got this misguided impression from. Perhaps you mean "It's the only text I found in English"?

It is not even an original work, it's a rehashing of some of Imam Nawawi's rulings, mixed with other rulings, and was hardly ever used until the American Sufi guy decided to translate it into English. Doesn't mean it's not a book of some merit, but it's most certainly not a 'leading text'... that's the statement of a real amateur.

Quote:

Finding the odd Christian that kills his wife (kills a daughter for moral crimes? Almost never) does not overshadow the legion honour killings in Islam

The 'odd' Christian who kills his wife is it??

Quote:

according to human rights lawyer Julie Mertus "in Brazil, until 1991 wife killings were considered to be noncriminal 'honor killings'; in just one year, nearly eight hundred husbands killed their wives. Similarly, in Colombia, until 1980, a husband legally could kill his wife for committing adultery."

(Wikipedia: Honour_killing)

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