Australian Politics Forum - Spiritual words from the koran

abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #30 - Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:06pm

Darwin,

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It weren't christians who flew the two airliners into the twin towers!

Suppose it wasn't a Christian who blew up the Oklahoma city building either right? Wasn't Christians who completely obliterated Iraq and Afghanistan and murdered hundreds of thousands of civilians? Wasn't Christians who nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki, wasn't Christians who gassed millions of people in Europe either.. right?? No no no, Christians don't do those kinds of things. The measely retaliations of a few disgruntled Muslims can not even remotely compare to the large scale massacres and genocides carried out by Christians, just in the last century alone.

Grendel,

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I'm well aware of the Golden Rule and the versions in other religions thanks Abu.

Really?? Your first post seemed to indicate you were under the delusion it was a Christian invention, and that any other religion using it was just plagiarising an originally Christian teaching... not the case? My apologies then

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Oh dear it appears you think everyone not a Muslim is dumb or illiterate or ignorant.

Well no.. but you don't give much hope Grin

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My point was that which you quoted as the be all and end all word of God

Sprint asked for quotes, I gave him some... In case you didn't notice, that's why the thread was opened... Not too quick on the uptake are you?

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I believe that the OT is the Jewish "Bible"

The OT is known in Judaism as the "TaNaKH". Which is an acronym formed by taking the first letter of the 3 books of which it is made up, the Taurah, Nebiium & KHetubim. Bible is a Greek term used to describe the binding of the OT & NT into a single book.

Either way, it was the book used by Jesus (pbuh) and his followers was it not? So if God can command people to have no pity, no mercy, and to kill old, young, children, babies etc. then I'm sure that just merely permitting Muslims to fight to defend themselves pales in comparison. That was my point, but I should've known it would go straight over this little black duck's head..

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The NT is a new covenant between God and man, they are not the same thing

That's right, but you still believe it's the same God right?

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #31 - Aug 17^th, 2009 at 8:35pm Well thanks for that... pointless rubbish. If you want to debate isn't it about time you debated reality. ie what people actually say as opposed to bits of what they say or what you think they say or would like them to have said? No? Too difficult for Muslims to cope with reality?
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #32 - Aug 17^th, 2009 at 9:01pm The golden rule appears over and again in philosophical musings, religious instruction and sage advice and owes its eternal expression more to human instinct and intuition, upon formative interaction with others, than it ever will to metaphysical beings or 'divine revelation'.
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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #33 - Aug 17^th, 2009 at 9:13pm Your point...? We already covered it re the claims in the topic.
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Darwin

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #34 - Aug 18^th, 2009 at 11:46am

Hmmmm Hiroshima, well, you launch a war with a sneak attack on a superior power you are going to get punished.

Nazis were not christians.

Re Iraq and 'Stan, hysterically exaggerated claims that do not help your rotten cause. You didn't mention that millions of people from christian countries protested the war.

Islam has not evolved being stuck to the mish mash of Mohammad's writing that was jammed together into a book, the Koran. How anyone can think Sharia law should be applied today just boggles the mind.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #35 - Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:40pm

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Hmmmm Hiroshima, well, you launch a war with a sneak attack on a superior power you are going to get punished.

I see... sneak attack is justification for nuking hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and conventionally bombing hundreds of thousands more... right. Better be careful not to use sneak attacks against your enemies, lest they do the same to you... since they'd be well within their rights... right? Or do such justifications only work one way? Sorry I'm not so clued up on the intricacies of hypocrisy.

And Muslims are supposedly the terrorists of this world? Give me a break.

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Nazis were not christians.

The German state was just as Christian as any state in the Muslim world today is Islamic. Also there are plenty of Christians who were amongst the highest ranking Nazis. Just because Hitler might have used some Aryan/Nordic mythology to rally nationalist sentiment, doesn't detract from the Christian roots of Germany. Also there's plenty of unmistakeable statements from Hitler himself like: "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." (Adolf Hitler, The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, London: Oxford University Press). Hitler was raised Catholic and never publically announced leaving the Church. And the Nazi party in it's early years at least advocated a reform of Christianity known as "Positive Christianity" (German: Positives Christentum), whose symbol was quite obviously a melding of the crucifix and the swastika:

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Re Iraq and 'Stan, hysterically exaggerated claims that do not help your rotten cause.

Now Muslim deaths are just 'hysterically exaggerated'...

The simple fact is that hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians have died as a result of the U.S-led invasions of those two countries. Millions more have been displaced. And about a million more starved to death as a result of the sanctions.

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You didn't mention that millions of people from christian countries protested the war.

That doesn't change what's been done.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #36 - Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:59pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 18^th, 2009 at 12:40pm:

Quote:

Nazis were not christians.

The German state was just as Christian as any state in the Muslim world today is Islamic. Also there are plenty of Christians who were amongst the highest ranking Nazis. Just because Hitler might have used some Aryan/Nordic mythology to rally nationalist sentiment, doesn't detract from the Christian roots of Germany. Also there's plenty of unmistakeable statements from Hitler himself like: "As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice." (Adolf Hitler, The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, London: Oxford University Press). Hitler was raised Catholic and never publically announced leaving the Church. And the Nazi party in it's early years at least advocated a reform of Christianity known as "Positive Christianity" (German: Positives Christentum), whose symbol was quite obviously a melding of the crucifix and the swastika:

Not to mention the Nazis giving Martin Luther his 'birthday present' on the 10th November 1938.

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mozzaok

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #37 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:08pm

Soren wrote on Aug 16^th, 2009 at 9:36pm:

This is all very nice but nothing new. You don't need Mohammed for these. It has been all said before. "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."

Well if you just take out the word mohammed, and change it to jesus, the same would apply, in relation to offering nothing new, or original.

So it is fair enough for Abu to categorise these threads as being disingenuous attempts by christians, to once more run down muslims, which is a very unchrist like attitude to take.

The aspect of mohammeds record of violently spreading his sphere of influence is documented, because he actually is known to have existed, whilst jesus may just be a fictional character, and therefore more likely to eschew the human failings, and ascribe far more godly qualities to his character.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #38 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:36pm

mozza, although I applaud you for your even handed attempt to restore some semblance of balance to this discussion, I'd just like to clarify the circumstances under which the Muslims engaged in military campaigns in spreading throughout the Arabian peninsula.

In those days, and in fact, even today, we live in a dog eat dog world, especially on the level of states. If the Muslims did not stand their ground, and even engage in pre-emptive strikes at times, then they would've been wiped out. Indeed, they were almost wiped out quite a few times by the encroaching armies of Arab pagan confederates and their Jewish allies. They were situated between the hostile Arabs to the south, and to the north, by the proxy tribe/states of the Persians and Byzantine Romans, and Medinah was surrounded with traiterous Jewish tribes, who regularly helped the invading Makkans.

The tale that Muslims waged violent campaigns of conquest all over the Arabian peninsula simply aren't true. The Muslims formed their state in Medinah (a city which had absolutely no Muslim inhabitants at the time of the agreement) through negotiation and agreement. They then secured the allegiance of some surrounding tribes, and were attacked by the Arabs from Makkah (their former home, from where they were expelled). Almost every single battle between Medinah and Makkah took place either just outside, or actually in Medinah, against invading Makkan troops.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #39 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:41pm

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have had to contend with a reinvigorated (and Christian evangelising) Roman Empire. The fact of just how close Justinian came to succeeding would have still been prominent in the psychs of Middle Eastern people.

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mozzaok

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #40 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 5:44pm

Fair enough Abu, I agree that the context of the time and place of mohammed, was a far more violent world, than any of us could imagine, and was very much a dog, eat dog, world, and any leader who did not display military strength, and employ violence, to maintain their position, would have been either wipes out, or absorbed.

Again I find the christian position totally disingenuous, when they denounce mohammed as a barbarian, and praise bush for taking the war to the middle east, they can see justification for one man's brutality, but not the others.

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #41 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:15pm

helian,

Quote:

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have..

And if the Muslims of Andalus had've met up with the Muslims of Eastern Europe, they would've come together and taken all of Europe... What would've, could've, had've.. wasn't.

mozza,

Quote:

Again I find the christian position totally disingenuous, when they denounce..

Agreed, quite disingenious, especially since at the time of Muhammad (pbuh) and shortly after during the rule of his direct successors, many Christians considered the newly-arrived Muslims to be far less barbaric than their own fellow Christians.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #42 - Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:25pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 20^th, 2009 at 6:15pm:

helian,

Quote:

And if Justinian had've succeeded in reunifying the Eastern and Western Roman empires, the Middle East would have..

And if the Muslims of Andalus had've met up with the Muslims of Eastern Europe, they would've come together and taken all of Europe... What would've, could've, had've.. wasn't.

But what resulted from the near would'ves, could'ves and had'ves... was a sense of siege.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #43 - Aug 21^st, 2009 at 8:15am

mozzaok - Quote:

So it is fair enough for Abu to categorise these threads as being disingenuous attempts by christians, to once more run down muslims, which is a very unchrist like attitude to take.

this thread was put up by me for muslims to share their spiritual words.
I have made no comments here.

In all honesty, I have seen no spirituality here.

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Modern Classic Right Wing

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #44 - Aug 21^st, 2009 at 12:10pm I think you'll find Aboo has been the one taking this topic off topic... with his attacks on Christianity.
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