Australian Politics Forum - Spiritual words from the koran

abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #60 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:30am

helian,

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Be careful not to over-egg the cake, Abu. There are other spiritual texts which make predictions about the fate of the world

That's right there are. I, however, am not making an absurd claim that those texts contain nothing new, nor am I claiming they are devoid of spiritual or moral or prophetic value.

mozzaok,

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Well there is a paradox at play if you really believe that Abu.
That god could seal someone off from exploring new ideas,

He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path).

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #61 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:02am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:30am:

helian,

Quote:

Be careful not to over-egg the cake, Abu. There are other spiritual texts which make predictions about the fate of the world

That's right there are. I, however, am not making an absurd claim that those texts contain nothing new, nor am I claiming they are devoid of spiritual or moral or prophetic value.

No, you're not... And if we're talking about 'nothing new under the sun', an early Buddhist could have been forgiven for thinking that the founding Christian fathers had ripped off Buddhism.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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abu_rashid

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #62 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am

The fact is all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' is inspired by and influenced by those who preceded them. Is this what you mean to convey?

The Christians do have some ugly arrogance regarding their claim to being originators of ideas, whilst everyone else just supposedly copied. Even their claims about science are ridiculous, that Islamic scientists merely copied the works of their predecessors, whilst Christian/European scientists made real innovations.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #63 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:27am abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am: The fact is all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' is inspired by and influenced by those who preceded them. Is this what you mean to convey? Exactly... and, of course.
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Grendel

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #64 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 11:50am

Quote:

The Christians do have some ugly arrogance regarding their claim to being originators of ideas, whilst everyone else just supposedly copied. Even their claims about science are ridiculous, that Islamic scientists merely copied the works of their predecessors, whilst Christian/European scientists made real innovations.

Obviously written by someone delusional and paranoid.

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Soren

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #65 - Aug 25^th, 2009 at 9:56pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:27am:

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 25^th, 2009 at 10:23am:

The fact is all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' is inspired by and influenced by those who preceded them. Is this what you mean to convey?

Exactly... and, of course.

None of this means, of course, that the achievements or indeed the motivations of "all human being, religions, cultures, scientists, musicians, artists, anyone who 'comes up with stuff' " is equal.

That we have all had predecessors does not mean that we are acheiving or contributing equally.

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Soren

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #66 - Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:25pm

It is narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: "A man gave as a gift to the Messenger of Allah a slave who was called Mid'am. Whilst Mid'am was bringing down a saddle for the Messenger of Allah an arrow came out of nowhere and killed him.

The people said, "How fortunate he is! Paradise is his," but the Messenger of Allah said, "No, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, the cloak which he took from the war-booty on the day of Khaybar before the booty had been shared out will burn him with fire."

When the people heard that, a man came and brought one or two shoelaces to the Prophet and said, "A shoelace of fire" or "Two shoelaces of fire."

Bukhari & Muslim

And that's why Muslulmans now wear slippers.

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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #67 - Mar 11^th, 2010 at 2:41pm

Soren wrote on Jan 27^th, 2010 at 5:25pm:

It is narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: "A man gave as a gift to the Messenger of Allah a slave who was called Mid'am. Whilst Mid'am was bringing down a saddle for the Messenger of Allah an arrow came out of nowhere and killed him.

The people said, "How fortunate he is! Paradise is his," but the Messenger of Allah said, "No, by the One in Whose hand is my soul, the cloak which he took from the war-booty on the day of Khaybar before the booty had been shared out will burn him with fire."

When the people heard that, a man came and brought one or two shoelaces to the Prophet and said, "A shoelace of fire" or "Two shoelaces of fire."

Bukhari & Muslim

And that's why Muslulmans now wear slippers.

I'd like to pose you a riddle, Soren: what do you think the above passage means?

Quite seriously. There's a point in there somewhere. What do you think it is?

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #68 - Mar 11^th, 2010 at 7:58pm It means EXACTLY what it says.
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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #69 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:02am

Soren wrote on Mar 11^th, 2010 at 7:58pm:

It means EXACTLY what it says.

If you believe that, you're as fundamentalist as those you seek to oppose, and in fact, you're swallowing their poison.

The passage you've quoted is allegorical. The Koran is a text like any other. There's no need to get hysterical about it - you might as well get in a tizz over a Hallmark card.

Well, a Greek myth, or an Aboriginal Dreaming story, or a parable, or a Grimm's fairy tale.

You're an intelligent person, Soren. You've been gifted with an education. You've been taught to read, which places you in a better position than many people in the world today.

So using these gifts, I ask you: what do you think the passage actually means?

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #70 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:32am

karnal - so midam was a slave who was killed by an arrow came from nowhere .
moh said the slave took a cloak off a dead enemy before the spoils of war were divided.
moh said the slave stole, i assume being killed is the penalty.

moh then said the stolen cloak will burn the guy.
the threat of fire is common in the koran. maybe he meant the guilt of the stolen cloak convicts him ?

some other guy brings a shoelace or two and says perhaps the shoelaces are fire too.
were they the slaves shoelaces?

the text shows no remorse, compassion or relationships.
there is no connection, nothing to be gleamed from it but that allah will kill every thief, then burn them afterwards by their stolen goods.

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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #71 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:01pm

Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 10:32am:

karnal - so midam was a slave who was killed by an arrow came from nowhere .
moh said the slave took a cloak off a dead enemy before the spoils of war were divided.
moh said the slave stole, i assume being killed is the penalty.

moh then said the stolen cloak will burn the guy.
the threat of fire is common in the koran. maybe he meant the guilt of the stolen cloak convicts him ?

some other guy brings a shoelace or two and says perhaps the shoelaces are fire too.
were they the slaves shoelaces?

the text shows no remorse, compassion or relationships.
there is no connection, nothing to be gleamed from it but that allah will kill every thief, then burn them afterwards by their stolen goods.

So you think it's about theft. Interesting. This shows how texts can reveal different layers of meaning to different people.

I'd say the fire is allegorical - as with the war-booty, and the arrow coming out of nowhere.

Allegorical texts - like poetry - require a different form of reading to text books. You need to let the words settle and think deeply about them. Sometimes, you need to feel them.

If you just want a quick internet giggle, have one.

But if you want to know more about the world, all the interesting texts that have been left for us - but most importantly, yourself - you need to look deeper.

Of course, they won't tell you this on Today Tonight.

But have another look. What do you think?

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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40772 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #72 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:14pm how do you interperet it karnal?
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96526	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #73 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:32pm Sprintcyclist wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:14pm: how do you interperet it karnal? I'd be a bit presumptious of me to draw first, SC. But on a side note, what do you think the parable of the mustard seed is about?
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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40772 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #74 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 12:39pm feel free to start a thread on it karnal. i'm a bit anal about keeping threads ontopic
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