Australian Politics Forum - Spiritual words from the koran

Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #75 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 1:30pm

I think, on one level, you're perfectly right: ill-gotten gains will come back to haunt you.

The mustard seed parable shows how a huge tree can grow from a tiny seed.

The guy gives Moh his shoelace - possibly the only posession he could spare - as a sacrifice. Giving up material things is important if you want to progress spiritually.

Likewise, a small act, thought or urge that you might think nothing of at the time can grow into a huge problem in your life. A mustard seed can grow up big. A puff of fire behind the school toilets can give you lung cancer if you get hooked.

But on another level, the saddle, the arrow, and the cloak of fire point to different references.

You remember the Jesus quote about a camel passing through the eye of a needle?

Putting this into its historical context, there was a temple in (I think) Jerusalem, which had a similar name in Hebrew to needle. The temple had a very low gate. To enter the gate (or eye) on a camel, the camel had to bend down low. In this reading, Jesus wasn't saying that it's impossible for the rich to enter the Kingdom, he was saying that they have to get down on their knees first - that they have to learn humility.

Now on another level, both camel and needle are Hebrew letters. In the Kabalistic system, Hebrew letters also represent numbers, and the use of these syllables as sounds were used as a Jewish form of mantra - a way of pronouncing the unpronouncable names of God. Much of the Bible talks about singing the praises of God, or rejoicing in His name. There are certain Hebrew vowel sounds that are used to obtain particular spiritual effects. The Egyptians had a similar system (which Moses was initiated into), and the Jews may well have borrowed this from them.

My point is this: spiritual texts are designed to contain different messages to different levels of readers. Many Muslims may therefore read the above and vow never to steal cloaks.

I don't know about the shoelaces, but the Christian puritans never wore buttons - too flashy. They wanted to be modest and simple, so their cloaks used hooks. To enter a mosque or most Muslim homes and shops, you have to take off your shoes. Shoelaces are harder to untie than pulling off slippers - so I'd say that this is the real reason for slippers: giving up your shoelaces demonstrates your willingness to pray more at the mosque.

The people in the story are swapping their worldly "shoelaces" so that they don't get burned by their past deeds.

This is essentially the message of every religion I can think of.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95416 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #76 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 2:16pm Correction to the above: Hebrew doesn't contain "vowel sounds."
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Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40717 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #77 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 3:05pm Well done karnal - thanks
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Soren

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #78 - Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:34pm

Karnal,
marvellous hermeneutical discourse. Deft references to the joos, the inventors of hermeneutics, of interpretive conversation, especially with god. Pity that this central, crucial element is forbidden by Islam. There is no conversation with Allan. There is no interpretation. There is no contextual analysis, hermeneutics, dance, unfolding, new horizons, metaphore and uncovering of hidden meaning and all that. There is cold, Arabic literalism, since the Koran is an eternal book, no word or letter to be understood in any way except as Mohammed (is contrued to have) meant it. (the bracketed bit must remain invisible and unthinkable to Muslims, on pain of death).

This is why islam is a parody. It does not understand anything except blind obedience. But mere obedience in religion is to miss the point entirely. In military matters, it is a first principle. In religion, it is not. Islam misses the point entirely. If it has any 'spiritual' meaning, it is completely unintended.

So the burning shoelaces mean exactly what they say. There is no human action that is not regulated by islam. You are not here to understand, you are here to submit. Understanding and meaning do not come into it. Conscience does not come into it. To ask, 'What do you think it means' is blasphemy in the making.

.

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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #79 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm

Soren wrote on Mar 12^th, 2010 at 7:34pm:

Karnal,
marvellous hermeneutical discourse. Deft references to the joos, the inventors of hermeneutics, of interpretive conversation, especially with god. Pity that this central, crucial element is forbidden by Islam. There is no conversation with Allan. There is no interpretation. There is no contextual analysis, hermeneutics, dance, unfolding, new horizons, metaphore and uncovering of hidden meaning and all that. There is cold, Arabic literalism, since the Koran is an eternal book, no word or letter to be understood in any way except as Mohammed (is contrued to have) meant it. (the bracketed bit must remain invisible and unthinkable to Muslims, on pain of death).

This is why islam is a parody. It does not understand anything except blind obedience. But mere obedience in religion is to miss the point entirely. In military matters, it is a first principle. In religion, it is not. Islam misses the point entirely. If it has any 'spiritual' meaning, it is completely unintended.

So the burning shoelaces mean exactly what they say. There is no human action that is not regulated by islam. You are not here to understand, you are here to submit. Understanding and meaning do not come into it. Conscience does not come into it. To ask, 'What do you think it means' is blasphemy in the making.

As I said before, Soren, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did!

All texts require a form of hermeneutics (or a way of interpreting). I believe there are differences between the Sunni and Shi'ite traditions (with the Shi'ites being more inclined to rely on interpretations from Mullahs). However, this doesn't change the fact that the Koran is a mystical book, and not a legal document.

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are a few), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith - or that there's much to wonder about. There is a big strain of Muslim poetry where existential questions are considered. Gibran is just one poet - I don't think the Prophet, for example, mentions Mohammed, Allah, or any laws at all.

But why care what others do with books? I've watched numerous quacks on Christian TV parody the Bible with their ideas about what Jesus taught. The problem here is the narrow interpretation, not the text itself.

If Hindus all believed that their main text, the Bhagavad Gita was just about a historical war between the Pandavas and the Kauravas, and that the god Krishna demanded that everyone, like Arjuna, fight and kill their family members, India would be the most warlike nation on earth.

But it's not. The family members are the five senses and the delusion they cause us. We identify so strongly with them, but they are not us, and this identification - these strongly held beliefs, ideals, egotistical, maniacal whims and convictions are, in the end, illusions. It's up to us to fight them - no one else can do it for us.

Likewise, there's a lot in the Koran about fighting, but not necessarily others. It's about fighting forces within yourself. The arrow out of nowhere, the war booty, the cloak of fire.

I don't read Arabic, but I imagine these words contain references to other ideas. To really interpret, you need to know the language and the cultural references.

But alas, that's something we're a bit ignorant about - wouldn't you say, Soren?

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« Last Edit: Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:07pm by Karnal »

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Soren

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #80 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

As I said before, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did.

...

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are many), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith -

There's the rub - those hermeneutically sensitive educated muslims don't need to talk to me - they need to talk to those fundamentalists whose 'poison' is to deny interptretation. But they don't dare. Hermeneutic interpretation of the Koran, a la rabbi, is anathema to islam. The whole point of Islamic teaching is NOT TO INTERPRET BUT TO SUBMIT. There is NO conversation with Allan.

Yo the Abus of this world, hermeneutics is a joo conspiracy, like everything that hinders submission.

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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #81 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

As I said before, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did.

...

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are many), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith -

There's the rub - those hermeneutically sensitive educated muslims don't need to talk to me - they need to talk to those fundamentalists whose 'poison' is to deny interptretation. But they don't dare. Hermeneutic interpretation of the Koran, a la rabbi, is anathema to islam. The whole point of Islamic teaching is NOT TO INTERPRET BUT TO SUBMIT. There is NO conversation with Allan.

Yo the Abus of this world, hermeneutics is a joo conspiracy, like everything that hinders submission.

You were too quick on the uptake for my edit.

I think you're right about submitting - after all, from what I've been told, Islam does mean submission to God.

But to think there's no conversation is a mistake. It's a different form of conversation. We can get caught up in words - so much that we become a slave to our chattering minds.

God is silence, not words. The words are there to help you get there.

If you don't think these conversations go on within Islam, you're mistaken.

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Soren

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #82 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:51pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm:

Soren wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 5:23pm:

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 4:16pm:

As I said before, you're swallowing fundamentalist poison if you believe all this. I thought the Christians invented hermeneutics. Good on the Joos if they did.

...

If you talked to any educated Muslim (and there are many), they'd tell you that there's much to interpret in their faith -

There's the rub - those hermeneutically sensitive educated muslims don't need to talk to me - they need to talk to those fundamentalists whose 'poison' is to deny interptretation. But they don't dare. Hermeneutic interpretation of the Koran, a la rabbi, is anathema to islam. The whole point of Islamic teaching is NOT TO INTERPRET BUT TO SUBMIT. There is NO conversation with Allan.

Yo the Abus of this world, hermeneutics is a joo conspiracy, like everything that hinders submission.

You were too quick on the uptake for my edit.

I think you're right about submitting - after all, from what I've been told, Islam does mean submission to God.

But to think there's no conversation is a mistake. It's a different form of conversation. We can get caught up in words - so much that we become a slave to our chattering minds.

God is silence, not words. The words are there to help you get there.

If you don't think these conversations go on within Islam, you're mistaken.

I am not mistaken. God is not silence. God is a 'still, small voice'. Look it up.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95416 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #83 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 8:03pm Well, I'm glad there's a place God can be "looked up."
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #84 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:02pm Fine, don't look it up.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95416 Gender:	Re: Spiritual words from the koran Reply #85 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 9:27pm Oh no, I'm looking it up...
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #86 - Mar 13^th, 2010 at 11:15pm

Karnal wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 6:17pm:

God is silence, not words. The words are there to help you get there.

Paraphrasing Meister Eckhart's philosophy... As 'god' is all, he cannot be defined. As anything that defines 'god' must necessarily be less than god's totality.

Quote:

God cannot be referred to as "good", "better", or best because He is above all things. If a man says that God is wise, the man is lying because anything that is wise can become wiser. Anything that a man might say about God is incorrect, even calling Him by the name of God.

I have always liked the idea of the Judaic tradition which taught that humankind could engage in a 'conversation' with god, including debating, disagreeing and haggling with the almighty. And when the texts have it that god answers, it can be profoundly beautiful in its pathos, such as in the Book of Job 38 & 39. Those chapters have god humbling Job through a series of questions and you don't have to believe in god to understand that they can serve as a reminder to us all of our contingency, the limits of our capacity to know the greatest truths and the wisdom of humility.

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Conviction is the art of being certain

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #87 - Mar 14^th, 2010 at 11:15am

Of course, you do have to wonder why the almighty, having condescended to speak directly to Job about the making and nature of the cosmos, felt the need to lie about its structure, when he could have said this....
Quote:

Just - re-member that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
and revolving at 900 miles an hour,
It's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
the sun that is the source of all our power.
The Sun and you and me, and all the stars that we can see,
are moving at a million miles a day,
In the outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour,
of the Galaxy we call the Milky Way.
Our Galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars,
it's 100,000 light-years side-to-side,
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light-years thick,
but out by us it's just 3000 light-years wide.
We're 30,000 light-years from galactic central point,
we go round every 200 million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
in this amazing and expanding universe.
The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding,
in all of the directions it can whizz,
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
how amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
because there's bugger all down here on Earth.

galaxy

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« Last Edit: Mar 14^th, 2010 at 12:37pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Karnal

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Re: Spiritual words from the koran
Reply #88 - Mar 15^th, 2010 at 12:47pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Mar 13^th, 2010 at 11:15pm:

I have always liked the idea of the Judaic tradition which taught that humankind could engage in a 'conversation' with god, including debating, disagreeing and haggling with the almighty. And when the texts have it that god answers, it can be profoundly beautiful in its pathos, such as in the Book of Job 38 & 39. Those chapters have god humbling Job through a series of questions and you don't have to believe in god to understand that they can serve as a reminder to us all of our contingency, the limits of our capacity to know the greatest truths and the wisdom of humility.

I've always like the Judaic tradition which taught that G-d is unrepresentable, un-nameable, and possibly unknowable. In most Jewish traditions it's a blasphemy to say what God thinks or believes on one matter or another.

So in this sense, it's almost futile to talk about God. Unlike atheists, I do think there's something there, but I don't think it's outside of ourselves.

As Jesus said in the Gospel of Thomas (and I'm paraphrasing - but not much): if you think the Kingdom is in the air, the birds will proceed you. If you think the Kingdom is in the sea, the fish will proceed you. The Kingdom of Heaven is within you, and outside of you.

Sadly, it's in certain people's interests to have a god that exists outside, who has a "will" that can be interpreted, and a set of laws that can be enforced.

I don't know what someone like Richard Dawkins would think of this - he'd probably say it's a moot point. He expects existence to be quantified, which is impossible to do with the subjective. Well, we do have language (including metaphor), so it's almost impossible.

If the Kingdom of Heaven is within, it will never able to be measured through the senses. And if it's the most important persuit we can make, this casts a shadow on the empirical sciences' ability to discover the source of happiness.

In Islam, the path to peace is submission to God. This is one path. Alcoholics Anonomous teaches a very similar path in "we made a decision to turn our will over to the care of God as we understood Him." Here, surrendering your will is the way to restore your "sanity".

It's not necessarily about obeying all these rules and regulations - the rules are meant to get you there.

There are, of course, other paths. Meditation is one, and there are also meditative streams and techniques within Islam.

I don't think you can ever come to terms with yourself (or the Kingdom of Heaven) with anger and pride (which is why they are listed as deadly sins). If your enemy exists outside yourself, it will always be there - you'll never get rid of it. If you do defeat them in battle, the enemy will shift and a new one will emerge.

Rebutting others' paths is futile. It is an excercise in narcissism. It rarely - if ever - changes them, and is all about boosting your own ego.

Our wars and petty skirmishes will be the dust of history, and if we don't even remember the Vietnam war, they'll never be remembered. They will just resurface again and again and again.

However, if we seek to defeat the enemies within, our goals are clearer. I'm not sure if we can every fully defeat them all - I believe some have, so I guess there's hope for us all. But the jihad is not an external battle. Yes, you can fight injustice on the outside, but the real battle exists within.

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