Australian Politics Forum - islams failure to its own people.

Sprintcyclist

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islams failure to its own people.
Aug 27^th, 2009 at 12:22pm

A failure to modernise, to assimilate, to adapt, to progress.

this is where your backward looking comes from abu.
read it and weep , then look forward to the 21st century

in a nutshell, this says islam is full of arrogant stiffnecked repressive backward poor people.

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At the height of the Islamic Empire, the Muslim community
was a world leader in both economic status and military
strength. However, the Islamic world’s failure to modernize its
cultural, political, and economic systems has resulted in widespread
financial ruin. The inability of the Muslim world to compete
in the globalized economy has resulted in chronic poverty
and illiteracy, creating conditions in which frustrated youth are
willing to embrace new and radical ideologies with the goal of
instituting significant change in their societies.........

........However,
because Muslim scientists were slow to acknowledge European
innovations and continued to focus upon discoveries already
made by previous generations, they have been significantly outpaced
by their European counterparts, and continue to trail other
cultures in scientific research and medicine to this day.
The Islamic world’s perspective on issues of women’s
rights also stands in sharp contrast to global trends.........

........Perhaps the most devastating and widespread failure in
the Islamic world is the lack of free and open democracies.
Successful democratic governments have been infrequent, particularly
in the Arab World, as democracy faces both religious and
social impediments in Muslim cultures......

...........The consistent effort by the governments of many Muslim
nations to limit democratic expression is the primary reason that
the Middle East has one of the poorest ratings of political freedom
in the world. Under Freedom House’s seven-point scale, with 1.0
being the most free and 7.0 the least free, the Middle East averages
a rating of 5.53.28 Sixteen Arab states have no democracies, and
these countries average a freedom level of 5.81, compared to the
worldwide average of 3.16.29 More troubling is that the average
level of freedom in the Middle East has over the years declined
rather than increased.
The result of the Islamic world’s hesitancy to undergo
reform clearly impacts the economic health of Muslim countries.
In 1999, the combined GDP of all Arab countries equaled $531.2
billion, which is smaller than that of Spain, and the World Bank
estimates that in 2000 the average annual income in Muslim
countries was half of the world’s average........

...........Islamic fundamentalism has proven to be a tremendously
resilient ideology, supported by the rampant poverty and hopelessness
faced by the Muslim world. The inability of Islamic
societies to counter the resurgence of Christian Europe following
the Middle Ages was only the beginning of a history of economic
and military domination, and many Muslim nations continue to
struggle in the modern globalized economy.
Religious fundamentalism is appealing to the disadvantaged
specifically because it is based upon the triumphs of the
Islamic empires before their demise.......

http://www.tcr.org/tcr/essays/eprize07_Ten%20Modern%20Islam%20163.pdf

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #1 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 1:01pm

There's no doubting Islamic civilisation fell and that it ceased to produce any significant scientific achievements in the past few centuries, you're not really telling us much there.

However these claims it just needs to emulate Western civilisation and all will be fine again are just ridiculous.

As are points like this:

Quote:

More troubling is that the average
level of freedom in the Middle East has over the years declined
rather than increased.

Not quite as troubling as the fact that as freedoms declined, the relationship with the West between the leaders of those countries became closer... co-incidence?

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #2 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 1:33pm

nice to see you accept some facts abu
Quote:

There's no doubting Islamic civilisation fell and that it ceased to produce any significant scientific achievements in the past few centuries, you're not really telling us much there.

It is significant that islam has not produced anything scientific for a few 1000 years.
well, maybe not for muslims, as they live in the past, but for those of us who drive cars, can read or write, have electric lights, penecillian etc etc etc it IS significant.

"You are now entering islam, please turn your watches back 1400 years."

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abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: islams failure to its own people. Reply #3 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 2:06pm Quote: It is significant that islam has not produced anything scientific for a few 1000 years. Interesting... even more signifcant is that Islam hasn't even existed for a few 1000 years..
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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40763 Gender:	Re: islams failure to its own people. Reply #4 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 2:19pm my mistake, sorry. It is significant that islam has not produced anything scientific for a few 100 years. From well before cars, bicycles and electricity in streets islam has alternated between been navalgazing, beheading adulterators, blaming others for their own issues and chopping the hands off theives.
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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #5 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 4:45pm

Quote:

It is significant that islam has not produced anything scientific for a few 100 years.

It is, but not surprising. When a society is economically and politically subservient to others, it will be so militarily and scientifically too, goes without saying.

Quote:

From well before cars, bicycles and electricity in streets islam has alternated between been navalgazing, beheading adulterators, blaming others for their own issues and chopping the hands off theives.

Not quite sure what "navalgazing" is, but as for the others, mentioning them just indicates how removed you are from the reality of the situation. The Islamic civilisation carried out capital punishment when it was producing scientific works, and today the U.S and before the U.S.S.R both carry out capital punishment, yet it hasn't prevented them being behind most of the scientific innovation of the past century...

Your point is just drivel, that has no relevance to the discussion at all.

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Soren

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #6 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 9:59pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 27^th, 2009 at 4:45pm:

Quote:

It is significant that islam has not produced anything scientific for a few 100 years.

It is, but not surprising. When a society is economically and politically subservient to others, it will be so militarily and scientifically too, goes without saying.

Quote:

From well before cars, bicycles and electricity in streets islam has alternated between been navalgazing, beheading adulterators, blaming others for their own issues and chopping the hands off theives.

Not quite sure what "navalgazing" is, but as for the others, mentioning them just indicates how removed you are from the reality of the situation. The Islamic civilisation carried out capital punishment when it was producing scientific works, and today the U.S and before the U.S.S.R both carry out capital punishment, yet it hasn't prevented them being behind most of the scientific innovation of the past century...

Your point is just drivel, that has no relevance to the discussion at all.

Get away with you!! By your own reckoning the Islamic ummah endeed in 1924. So what happened to the lost centuried between, say, 1300 and 1924?

That's 624 years.

I am counting from the date Dante says his deam happened - Easter of the year 1300. That is a comnvenient date. Europe is well and truly in full possessions of its true self. It markss the ascendance of the European ideal, after the bloodyy encounter with Islam, and Isla is sliding into its despotic stupor. The Turk is gathering and the Europeans have the measure of fvckers. The next 387 years will be spent with holding the Turk at bay and finally expelling him from Europe except for the balkans.
Dante shows the European confidence in the face of Islam when he says:

Even a cask with bottom or sides knocked out
   Never cracked so wide as one soul I saw
   Burst open from the chin to where one farts.

25 His guts were hanging out between his legs;
   His pluck gaped forth and that disgusting sack
   Which turns to poo what throats have gobbled down.

   While I was all agog with gazing at him,
   He stared at me and, as his two hands pulled
30 His chest apart, cried, "Look how I rip myself!

   "Look at how mangled is Mohammed here!
   In front of me, Ali treks onward, weeping,
   His face cleft from his chin to his forelock.

   "And all the others whom you see down here
35 Were sowers of scandal and schism while
   They lived, and for this they are rent in two.

   "A devil goes in back here who dresses us
   So cruelly by trimming each one of the pack
   With the fine cutting edge of his sharp sword

40 "Whenever we come round this forlorn road:
   Because by then our old wounds have closed up
   Before we pass once more for the next blow.

   "But who are you, moping upon that ridge
   Perhaps to put off facing the penalty
45 Pronounced on you by your own accusations?"

   "Death has not yet reached him, nor guilt led him
   To the torture here," — my master answered,
   "But, to offer him the full experience,

   "I who am dead am destined to guide him
50 From circle to circle down here into hell,
   And, as surely as I speak to you, it’s true."

That is the voice of confidence, daing to 1300 exactly. "sowers of scandal and schism" indeed.

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #7 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 10:26pm

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Get away with you!! By your own reckoning the Islamic ummah endeed in 1924.

The Islamic Ummah has not ended. Don't know where you got this one from.

Quote:

So what happened to the lost centuried between, say, 1300 and 1924?

Although the seeds of decline were sewn in the 13th century, with the Mongol invasion and subsequent trashing of almost all of the Islamic lands by their hordes, that was not the end of Islamic scientific, political and military dominance. The Ottoman rise hadn't even begun, and the Mameleek were just beginning to spring onto the scene, not to mention the fact that the Mongols would soon convert to Islam, and some of them would even become great scientists themselves, once the Islamic ideals began to open their hearts and minds.

Quote:

Easter of the year 1300. That is a comnvenient date. Europe is well and truly in full possessions of its true self. It markss the ascendance of the European ideal

Europe was still steeped in darkness at this time, and would remain so for another century or two to come. It wasn't until the reconquista got iinto full swing, and the fruits of Islamic civilisation were translated and transferred to Europe that the 'european ideal' would ascend. Stop being such a pathetic little denier of truth, and lying about the influence of Islam on Europe. Even many Europeans today are admitting this, and many Western made documentaries have clearly documented it. But imbeciles such as yourself remain in darkness and denial, refusing to give Islam even the slightest credit.

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The next 387 years will be spent with holding the Turk at bay and finally expelling him from Europe except for the balkans.

What a load of crap. The Europeans had absolutely no way of stopping the Turks, until they overstretched themselves and finally began to collapse from wiithin due to their decadance and straying from Islam. If they had remained steadfast on the path of Islam, we'd probably be conducting this conversation (or another most likely) in Arabic or perhaps even Ottoman Turkish.

Quote:

Dante shows the European confidence in the face of Islam when he says:

As for that filth you dare call poetry, about the only reason you have any interest in it, is the fact it speaks about Islam. If it didn't, you wouldn't even pay it the slightest attention. Much like Rushdie wouldn't have sold a single book of his filth if it didn't mention Islam.

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Soren

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #8 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 10:44pm

Nonsense on every point, I am afraid.

Islam's influence is at the level of curio, not of teacher. There is nothing Islamic in the renaissance, for example. It is all about going back to the greek and roman sources from which europe was cut off from - by the Muslims. Fancy that.

Islam was a transmitter only in so far as it stopped being a blocker and and a robber.

Islamic decadence begins when it cannot conquer any more and feels in control. It is good at conquering and subjugating and enslaving (dhimmitude is enslavement, not tolerance).

Dante is not crap and I know him inside out. He got the meassure of Mahomet, just like he got the measure of all who appear in his Comedy.
I know, when the ummah comes, his books will be burnt. But then again - whose books won't be??

You guys are copiers, not original thinkers or creators. Even Arabic numbers are really Indian numbers. Even your chemistry and medicine is stuff you plundered from the people you conquered. That is impossible for you to think something new as you need to check with the bearded imams before you can have a thought of your own.
Attacking non-Islamic things is jihad and so you can do that without head office approval. But not creating and thinking something new. That needs a ruling firts from a pinhead whose only claim to authority is that he has memorised a disjointed and tedious 7th century arabic text.

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #9 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 10:58pm

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It is all about going back to the greek and roman sources from which europe was cut off from - by the Muslims. Fancy that.

Are you really that self-deluded? Europe was cut off from it's Greek & Roman history by your very own Christianity. I can't believe you have the audacity to blame that on Islam. Whilst Christianity was burning any book remotely related to Greek & Roman history, the Muslims were busy restoring, translating and then most importantly _SHARING_ that knowledge back out with the world (even though most Europeans shunned it, considering it evil knowledge).

It's quite ironic, because you have no problem identifying Muslim's denial of their own culpability for their own failures. Yet apparently when Europe detaches itself from it's history... it's all of a sudden the Muslim's fault.

Just to drive home how completely ridiculous your claims are, Rome, the centre of Roman civilisation (obviously) never ever came under the rule of Islam. Greece never came under Islamic rule until after the renaissance had begun. So how on earth you can claim Muslims "cut you off from" it is just completely beyond any logical thought process I can imagine.

Quote:

Islam was a transmitter only in so far as it stopped being a blocker and and a robber.

Right... whatever makes you feel happy. Remain in your petty state of denial, I couldn't care less about small minded cretins such as yourself.

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Sprintcyclist Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40763 Gender:	Re: islams failure to its own people. Reply #10 - Aug 27^th, 2009 at 11:35pm so where in the bible does it say to burn books, shun education?? Nope, sorry, wrong again, abu
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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #11 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 12:25am

Well that's what the Christians did... not the Muslims. Soren in his little anti-Islamic delusional world though can't concede any merit to Islam, nor can he let any opportunity escape to try to heap some blame onto it. No matter how illogical or unhistorical it might obviously be.

Nobody said it was scripturally based. But it happened nonetheless.

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Coral Sea

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #12 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 1:43am

Democracy and women's rights (aside from education) have nothing to do with economic modernization, which is the main issue for the Islamic world. Why is the West so upset that Islam refuses to deracinate itself and adopt the same mealy-mouthed secular humanism we're destroying ourselves with? Much as I loathe Islamic immigrants, it makes me happy to see at least one significant civilization refusing to accept liberalism.

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"General, these are American regulars. In a hundred and fifty years they have never been beaten. They will hold."&&-- Col. Preston Brown, C/S, 2nd Division, the Marne, June 1, 1918

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #13 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 8:27am

abu - as we have been through many times.
yes, christians do do bad stuff.

repeated question, where does it say in the bible to burn books ?

"Choose my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold,
for wisdom is more precious than rubies, and nothing you desire can compare with her."

proverbs 8:10,11

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #14 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 11:04am

Since soren is the one who was talking about destroying/preventing the legacy of Rome/Greece being transferred, perhaps you'd better ask him? He may have misidentified the culprit, but he certainly made the accusation.

I was merely pointing out Muslims certainly didn't do it, in fact they did the complete opposite.

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