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islams failure to its own people. (Read 2579 times)

Sprintcyclist

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #15 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 12:23pm

abu - Quote:

Whilst Christianity was burning any book remotely related to Greek & Roman history..........
I was merely pointing out Muslims certainly didn't do it, in fact they did the complete opposite.

so, there is nothing in the bible that says to discredit learning and knowledge?
but you are too arrogant to admit that ?

that's ok, i forgive you.

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Soren

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #16 - Aug 28^th, 2009 at 10:58pm

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 27^th, 2009 at 10:58pm:

Quote:

It is all about going back to the greek and roman sources from which europe was cut off from - by the Muslims. Fancy that.

Are you really that self-deluded? Europe was cut off from it's Greek & Roman history by your very own Christianity. I can't believe you have the audacity to blame that on Islam. Whilst Christianity was burning any book remotely related to Greek & Roman history, the Muslims were busy restoring, translating and then most importantly _SHARING_ that knowledge back out with the world (even though most Europeans shunned it, considering it evil knowledge).

It's quite ironic, because you have no problem identifying Muslim's denial of their own culpability for their own failures. Yet apparently when Europe detaches itself from it's history... it's all of a sudden the Muslim's fault.

Just to drive home how completely ridiculous your claims are, Rome, the centre of Roman civilisation (obviously) never ever came under the rule of Islam. Greece never came under Islamic rule until after the renaissance had begun. So how on earth you can claim Muslims "cut you off from" it is just completely beyond any logical thought process I can imagine.

Quote:

Islam was a transmitter only in so far as it stopped being a blocker and and a robber.

Right... whatever makes you feel happy. Remain in your petty state of denial, I couldn't care less about small minded cretins such as yourself.

By signing up to Islam you have, by definition, surrendered reason at the tent-flap. So what you can and can't believe is no basis of deciding anything. For others, consider this:

With the rise of Islam, Europe was cut off from the Mediterranean, its main trade route to Christian North Africa and the Christian Levant. as well as Persia and beyond.
Within a 100 years of the rise of islam, all of North Africa and the Levant and Persia were overrun by Muslims. Trade with these huge areas of territory was lost to the west.
In 846 Muslims sacked Rome and carried off its treasures, resulting in the building of the walls of the Vatican (Helian and other igronamuses, wondering about the city status of the Vatican and sniffing religious conspiracy, please note).
Until the Americans kicked their arses, the Mohamedan pirates (the Barbary corsairs) menaced all trade and traffic on the Mediterranean, from the 8th century to the early 19th. That's 1000 years.

So Islam was a bringer of strife and darkness and cultural throat-cutting.

The fact that dhimmis under Islam were allowed to translate ancient texts that were used to justify islam is no compensation. No ancient texts dealing with matters inrrelevant to Islamic self-justification were allowed to be translated by the Mohamedan overlords - they did not give us Aristotle's Poetics or any of the Greek tragedies or Geek or Roman poetry, for example. We know from the example of what hapened to the Afghan Buddhist statues that Islam is not remotely interested in anything that preceded it, whatsoever.

So the loud praise for Islam saving the heritage of antiquity for the west is utter, utter crap. Islam has not conserved anything that predated it if it could just as well destroy it. Its instict has always been for destruction of whatever did not serve its predatory interests. The pyramids stand because the Muslim overlord who tried to destroy them could not actually do it (did not have access to western technology, the prick).

The muslim contribution to western intellectual and cultural life was limited and UNINTENDED. It was not unintended only in the sense of wanting to help the west - of course it did not want to do that - but it was unintended in the sense of preserving any pre-Islamic civilisational traces. Whatever it transmitted, rather then destroyed, was unintended. The proof is that ir denounces everything that went before it.

Any attempt of making Islam to appear decisive for western cultural power must be dismissed as fantasy with no relation to facts or events. The west encoutered Islam not as a bridge to anything but as a barrier to be overcome. And it has succeeded in the overcoming.

The Renaissance coincides, roughly, with the influx of Byzantine refugees fleeing after the fall of Constantinople, bringing to the west their books and expertise.

That fall and that fleeing also marks the beginning of Islamic decline. Mohamedans no longer had access to brainy dhimmis as they all fled. The history of Islam in the last 400 years is a history decline. Of those 400 years, western occupation accounts for between 60 and 160 years, at most. The sources of decline therefore must be located in Islam itself. It is closed-minded and despite its much longer history of being the menace of everything around it, today it plays the victim on account of a brief spell of western attempts to bring it the benefits of enlightenment and reason.

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #17 - Aug 29^th, 2009 at 1:24am

Quote:

With the rise of Islam, Europe was cut off from the Mediterranean

Not really cut off. The Islamic Caliphate was always very open and friendly towards other civilisations, the ignorant Europeans though never accepted this openness, and shunned it, preferring only open hostility. Besides, the mediterranean still didn't cut Europe off from Rome and Athens (or any other major Greek centre, except Alexandria).

Quote:

Within a 100 years of the rise of islam, all of North Africa and the Levant and Persia were overrun by Muslims. Trade with these huge areas of territory was lost to the west.

Actually trade increased under Islamic rule. The "Silk road" became a major highway of trade under Islam, when previously it was just small disjointed trade routes, under Islam it became a bustling trade network, which indeed did stretch into Europe. That's why plenty of stock food items borrow their word from Arabic, such as sugar, lemon, apricot, coffee and a host of others.

Quote:

In 846 Muslims sacked Rome and carried off its treasures

Actually I've never heard of this before. Unless I just missed it in amongst all the fellow Christians who sacked Rome during those times (ie. in 410, 455, 546, 1084, 1527). But wait... would Christians really do that? Ransack their own fellow Christian's capital??? No couldn't be, not in soren's little universe of delusion anyway. Christians were builders of civilisation, not sackers of it.... right?

Maybe they were Muslims in disguise? After all most were Arian Christians, who we both know were more Muslim-like, with their staunch adherence to monotheism and rejection of the trinity.

Quote:

Until the Americans kicked their arses, the Mohamedan pirates (the Barbary corsairs) menaced all trade and traffic on the Mediterranean, from the 8th century to the early 19th. That's 1000 years.

The fact that dhimmis under Islam were allowed to translate ancient texts

Sure they were translating them? I thought they were just burning and destroying them? Grin

You're a clown really soren, I don't know how you can keep a straight face whilst regurgitating this crap.

Quote:

The muslim contribution to western intellectual and cultural life was limited and UNINTENDED

Yeh it was all just by accident, we know. Grin

Quote:

The Renaissance coincides, roughly, with the influx of Byzantine refugees fleeing after the fall of Constantinople, bringing to the west their books and expertise.

That was part of it (More happened in conquered Andalus though). Strange... weren't the Byzantines Christians? So now you admit Christians did indeed possess the ancient texts. When they fled their religious authorities (who remained in Constantinople under Muslim rule) they were finally free to translate and pass them on. Prior to that, they would've been burnt at the stake for doing so.

Quote:

That fall and that fleeing also marks the beginning of Islamic decline. Mohamedans no longer had access to brainy dhimmis as they all fled.

Actually the vast majority of Greeks remained under Islamic rule (until the British brokered population transfer after WWI). It was only a small minority who fled.

Quote:

The history of Islam in the last 400 years is a history decline. Of those 400 years, western occupation accounts for between 60 and 160 years, at most

Actually colonisation of Muslim lands began aruond 400 years ago. In Africa, India, South-East Asia etc.

Quote:

The sources of decline therefore must be located in Islam itself.

The source of decline was in moving away from Islam, which then left them open to Western conquest. Islam cannot be the source, since the Muslims were so dominant and successful for so long, under the rule of Islam. Rather it is when they became lax in implementing Islam, and even began to mix Islam with foreign systems that the decline began to take hold. Such as the Mongol invasions, which began to replace Islamic law with Mongol laws, and later the Ottoman borrowing of European laws.

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Soren

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #18 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 1:14am

The Muslim invasion and menacing of the mediterreanen greatly contributed to the gravitation of European civilisation to the Atlantic. So we can thank the Muslims for the British Empire. One more great Islamic achievement.
The straightforward communication with the East, via Suez, was only re-established when the muslims were finally subdued.

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Soren

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #19 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 1:35am

abu_rashid wrote on Aug 29^th, 2009 at 1:24am:

Quote:

In 846 Muslims sacked Rome and carried off its treasures

Actually I've never heard of this before.

The walls of the Vatican were built in response to the Saracen looting in 846.
Quote:

Until the Americans kicked their arses, the Mohamedan pirates (the Barbary corsairs) menaced all trade and traffic on the Mediterranean, from the 8th century to the early 19th. That's 1000 years.

What you really mean to say is "They were dominant for that period (and we were losers), so we'lll try to invalidate their dominance by calling them pirates" People like Khyr'ad-deen Pasha (Barbarossa) were great naval leaders. The European claims they were pirates is about as substantial as the claim today that Muslim resistance movements are "terrorists", ie. it's a load of bollocks used to discredit your enemy, that's about it.

[/quote]

They were looters and slave traders. Pirates. The saracens were beaten back from Italy in the 11th century by the Normans, the Moors from Iberia in the 15th and the Turk from the Balkans in the 17th, Greece th 19th. The Americans finally made the Mediterranean safe for internationakl shipping in the 19th. Suez could finally be built.

A steady decline of Muslim power. When it has to find vitality in its own mental and economic resources, ie when it has to work (dread concept for tribal looters), it shrivels.

And Muslim terrorists today are just that - terrorists. They are not heroic resistance fighters. Their ideals are abhorrent.

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #20 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 9:28am

Quote:

A steady decline of Muslim power. When it has to find vitality in its own mental and economic resources, ie when it has to work (dread concept for tribal looters), it shrivels.

Compare countries like India under Islam to under the British. It's quite obvious who the looters were. What kind of an "empire" exports staple foods out of a region when millions of people are dying from famine?? Looters.

Or Africa. Under the centuries of Islamic rule, the people of eastern Africa were wealthy traders, who prospered. After only a century or two of European colonialism, they can't even feed themselves anymore, and have starved to death by the millions. Every land the British/West has touched, has been worse off for it, and most of them were previously under Islamic rule... and prospered under it.

As your own book states: "by their fruits you will know them"

« Last Edit: Sep 17^th, 2009 at 9:39am by abu_rashid »

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #21 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 9:47am

Quote:

.......After only a century or two of European colonialism, they can't even feed themselves anymore, and have starved to death by the millions.......

hahahahhaahahah abu !!
it took a few centuries for england to ruin africa ?????????
surely such a bad influence would be MUCh quicker.
The african states under black rule are the lowest in the earth.
when under white rule they were the best !!!!

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #22 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 10:28am

Quote:

it took a few centuries for england to ruin africa ?????????

Actually in most cases it was less than 1 century. But in some cases, Europeans have been there for about 200-300 years, so I used this figure as an upper limit.

Not just the British, the Portuguese, Italians, French and others were involved too. But seriously, look at the history of Africa prior to their arrival, and the bleak situation that has existed ever since...

They ran them into the ground. Ethiopia for instance, is perhaps the oldest Christian nation in existence. When Islam first began, Muslims travelled to Ethiopia as refugees, because it was a major centre of civilisation in that time. The Italians went in there less than a century ago, and were then followed by the Communists, and as we saw during the 80's, they just ended up starving to death and became one of the poorest nations on earth. Likewise for their neighbour Somalia, which was once a wealthy trade centre, today a backwater, completely ruined by a century of European 'Enlightenment'.

Another great example is Mali, once a bustling centre of civilisation, learning and culture. The Sankore university in Timbuktu (built in the 14th. century) was capable of housing over 25,000 students, and contained the largest library on the African continent since the Library of Alexandria, housing between 400,000-700,000 books and manuscripts. Today Mali is one of the poorest countries in the world. Only 50 odd years of French rule and it's gone to ruins. The once legendary city of Timbuktu has been reduced today to a beggers town. The city began to decline after explorers and slavers from Portugal and then other European countries landed in West Africa.

Quote:

The african states under black rule are the lowest in the earth.

A brief period of prosperity under white post-colonialist rule is fairly insignficant compared to the vast periods of time that Islam and then Europe ruled the region. Although it does tend to top up the naturally low self-esteem of white supremacists, who have a racial-deficiency complex.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #23 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 11:00am

300-500
Rise of Ghana due to trade; fall of Rome (A.D. 410); early Christian era.

610-700
Muhammad has first revelation; Qur’an written; spread of Islam, often through violent conflict. Arabian conquest of North Africa and Spain.

700
Ghana under the rule of Sisse clan. Europe in “Dark Ages.” Islam reaches the Sudan through trade and scholarship.

700-1000
Ghana dominant power in Western Sudan.

900-1000
Arab scholars write about Sudan.

1000
Al-Bakri writes history of Old Kingdom of Ghana based on reports from travelers, merchants, traders, etc.

1050
Almoravid (Islamics) invasion of Ghana; wide disruption of trade.

1087
Death of Abu Bakr, leader of Almoravids; movement declines; Muslim impact is widespread in the Western Sudan among kings but not in rural villages where traditional religions are practiced.

1100
City of Tombouctou founded as a small trading center along the Niger River.

1150
Susu clan dominates old Ghana.

1230
Sundiata, a Mandinka prince, defeats the Susu and founds the kingdom of Mali.

1255
Sundiata dies but leaves Mali securely in control of West-African gold and salt trade.

1307
Reign of Mansa Musa begins.

1320
Mansa Musa captures Tombouctou as part of Mali Empire, becomes center for scholarship, trade.

1324
Mansa Musa’s hajj (pilgrimage) to Egypt and Mecca. Al-Umari (1301-1349) records Mansa Musa’s visit in the Masalik al-Ahsad.

1325
Mali captures Gao.

1332
Mansa Musa dies.

1353
Ibn Battuta visits Mali, first person to write a first hand account of his travels in West Africa.

1359
Mali divided by civil war.

1433
Timbuktu captured and controlled by Berbers.

1450
Mali absorbed by Songhay; beginning of Renaissance in Europe.

1464
Reign of Sunni Ali Ber begins.

1468
Sunni Ali takes Timbuktu; sacks the city.

1473
Djenne surrenders after seven-year siege by Mali.

1492-1495
Songhay taken over by military leader named Askia Muhammad Toure. He makes hajj to Mecca in 1495.

1512
Leo Africanus, who visits Songhay in 1512, is first to write an account of sub-Saharan Africa (1562) that is translated into a language other than Arabic. Michelangelo completes his painting in the Sistine Chapel.

1590-1591
Mahmud al-Kati, Soninke writer, begins writing history of Sudan. No document survives, but his work is incorporated into the work Tarikh al-fettash, by Ibn Mukhtar. Leonardo da Vinci dies; Cortez enters Tenochtitlan, capital of Mexico, and meets the Aztec ruler Montezuma.

1528
Askia Muhammad exiled by son; dies in 1538.

1582
Songhay kingdom ruled by Askia Daoud.

1591
Songhay empire attacked by Morocco.

1618
Moroccan occupation of Songhay ends. Decline of Songhay complete by end of 17th century.

1670
Tuareg Berbers capture Gao.

1865
Thirteenth Amendment to the Constitution ends slavery in the United States

1884
At Berlin Conference, Africa is divided by European countries, and the period of African colonization begins.

1889
French invasion and take over of Mali, the French Sudan becomes part of the Federation of French West Africa.

1958
French constitutional referendum, French Sudan voted to the French Community as the autonomous Sudanese republic.

1960
Sudanese Republic loses Senegal and becomes the fully independent Republic of Mali.
1968
Mousssa Traoré elected president (reelected in 1979)

1979
New constitution contained provision for elections to be held, democratic measures were implemented in spite of an unstable political climate.

1991
President Traoré is overthrown and the military takes control.

1992
Constitution approves multi-party democracy and Alpha Konaré is elected in the first democratic presidential election.

1997
President Konaré reelected

as per usual, a lot of the strife is from the muslim quarter, also the berbers.
mali generally democratically self governed.
aside from the usual tribal military style insurgency that is common in africa.

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abu_rashid

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Re: islams failure to its own people.
Reply #24 - Sep 17^th, 2009 at 11:41am

Quote:

as per usual, a lot of the strife is from the muslim quarter, also the berbers.

Are you kidding sprint? Grin

Btw, you do realise Berbers are Muslims too, no?

Quote:

mali generally democratically self governed.

What a consolation. Going from being an international centre of learning, trade and culture, to being one of the poorest backwaters in the world, but at least you elect your own leader...

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