Australian Politics Forum - Hitchens in Australia

mozzaok

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #15 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 6:58am

Well as somewhat of an anti-theist myself, I had never seen or heard Hitchens before, and came to that clip totally unaware of his, or any of the other members backgrounds.
As far as intellect, and integrity went, he stood alone, he presented his views politely, but without prevarication, or compromise, which could not be said for Aleed Waly, who was the only other who offered any ideas of any substance, albeit ideas restricted by the dogma of his religion.

What shone through about the whole debate was the absolute craven cowardice of the panel, to openly champion their individual religion's "real" beliefs, or to even attempt to challenge hitchens perspective of those beliefs, if they thought they were wrong.
The only one who tried to challenge him was the very stupid woman on the right, whoever she was, she was just a pest making noise, without any worthwhile comments to make, and Brennan was just happy to keep his head down, paying due homage to the old saying, better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool, than open it, and remove all doubt.

So I do not need to know Hitchens past crimes or misdemeanors to judge the statements he made on the night, and none were unreasonable, and none were effectively challenged by anyone on that stage.
So, anti-theists one, delusionists zero.

Back to top

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #16 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:04am

Soren wrote on Oct 5^th, 2009 at 9:12pm:

Hitchens is great. He is a gadfly in the best tradition. He is articulate, he is smart and means good (you know he would not murder you if he found out that you are religious) ). He is passionately anti-religious and that is a great service as a corrective. He and his like are absolutely essential to avoid dogmatic stupor.

The great things about people like him is that group think is not required. You can disagree with him as long as you are intelligent about it. That's the challenge.

Hmm - it seems he has some strange allies too

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #17 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:15am

mozzaok wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 6:58am:

What shone through about the whole debate was the absolute craven cowardice of the panel, to openly champion their individual religion's "real" beliefs, or to even attempt to challenge hitchens perspective of those beliefs, if they thought they were wrong.

I guess our theologian "giants" did their homework and stumbled on what Hitchens said to a radio talkshow host, the hapless Paul Edwards, who must have woken up on the wrong side of his head and thought he had the mind to take Hitchens on.

Hitchens hangs up on Paul Edwards

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #18 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:16am

mozzaok wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 6:58am:

Well as somewhat of an anti-theist myself, I had never seen or heard Hitchens before, and came to that clip totally unaware of his, or any of the other members backgrounds.
As far as intellect, and integrity went, he stood alone, he presented his views politely, but without prevarication, or compromise, which could not be said for Aleed Waly, who was the only other who offered any ideas of any substance, albeit ideas restricted by the dogma of his religion.

What shone through about the whole debate was the absolute craven cowardice of the panel, to openly champion their individual religion's "real" beliefs, or to even attempt to challenge hitchens perspective of those beliefs, if they thought they were wrong.
The only one who tried to challenge him was the very stupid woman on the right, whoever she was, she was just a pest making noise, without any worthwhile comments to make, and Brennan was just happy to keep his head down, paying due homage to the old saying, better to keep your mouth shut, and be thought a fool, than open it, and remove all doubt.

So I do not need to know Hitchens past crimes or misdemeanors to judge the statements he made on the night, and none were unreasonable, and none were effectively challenged by anyone on that stage.
So, anti-theists one, delusionists zero.

Speaking as an anti-anti-theist who is totally 'non-delusional' Grin

, I think that the best thing to do with loud mouthed zealots of any persuation is not to engage them too seriously. It takes the wind out of their sails.

Dawkins received a similar polite and muted reception the last time he appeared in a debate in Australia.

I once went to a conference in Sydney where there was a participant from Salt Lake City. When it was his turn to speak, he launched into a diatribe which basically said that the most important thing in his life was his faith. The workshop had nothing to do with religion. You could see the body language and almost feel the rest of the (mostly Australian) delegates start to cringe when this 'embarrassing' topic of personal faith came up. We just don't revel in talking about such things - unlike the Yanks.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Hitchens in Australia Reply #19 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:37am muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:16am: I think that the best thing to do with loud mouthed zealots of any persuation is not to engage them too seriously. It takes the wind out of their sails. Hmm - Smells like you're apologising for cowardice.
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: Hitchens in Australia Reply #20 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:53am No - I just don't see the point in debating the undebatable. It's not a question of cowardice. It's a question of de gustibus non est disputandum as I've said before. How can you debate individual taste ?
Back to top	1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #21 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 9:07am

muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:53am:

No - I just don't see the point in debating the undebatable. It's not a question of cowardice. It's a question of de gustibus non est disputandum as I've said before.

How can you debate individual taste ?

That's true, but you must at least be prepared to defend what you say is the truth.

As Hitchens said in the clip... "I think it behoves the religious to say what they genuinely mean".

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #22 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 2:59pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 9:07am:

muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:53am:

No - I just don't see the point in debating the undebatable. It's not a question of cowardice. It's a question of de gustibus non est disputandum as I've said before.

How can you debate individual taste ?

That's true, but you must at least be prepared to defend what you say is the truth.

As Hitchens said in the clip... "I think it behoves the religious to say what they genuinely mean".

On the whole, like human beings of all persuasion, they genuinely mean what they genuinely believe.

Back to top

« Last Edit: Oct 7^th, 2009 at 2:55pm by muso »

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #23 - Oct 6^th, 2009 at 10:38pm

muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 8:04am:

Soren wrote on Oct 5^th, 2009 at 9:12pm:

Hitchens is great. He is a gadfly in the best tradition. He is articulate, he is smart and means good (you know he would not murder you if he found out that you are religious) ). He is passionately anti-religious and that is a great service as a corrective. He and his like are absolutely essential to avoid dogmatic stupor.

The great things about people like him is that group think is not required. You can disagree with him as long as you are intelligent about it. That's the challenge.

Hmm - it seems he has some strange allies too

You are puzzled by the requirement of intelligence, I see.

Back to top

IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #24 - Oct 7^th, 2009 at 8:13am

Soren wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 10:38pm:

You are puzzled by the requirement of intelligence, I see.

I have no doubt that he is intelligent and that he encourages intelligent debate. However he should use his intelligence for more a worthwhile cause.

Considering your defence of religion in past posts, I just find your defence of Hitchens to be incongruous, although I share your implied suspicion of fundamentalism.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Hitchens in Australia Reply #25 - Oct 7^th, 2009 at 1:04pm muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 2:59pm: On the whole, like human beings of all persuation, they genuinely mean what they genuinely believe. Unless they intend to deceive.
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

muso

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #26 - Oct 7^th, 2009 at 2:54pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 7^th, 2009 at 1:04pm:

muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 2:59pm:

On the whole, like human beings of all persuation, they genuinely mean what they genuinely believe.

Unless they intend to deceive.

( Eeek I just noticed that typo.) I think most religious people are fair dinkum. That's why I said 'on the whole" The ones who are not, are generally following another 'god' (Mammon). Most Tele-evangelists probably fall into that category.

Back to top

1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #27 - Oct 7^th, 2009 at 5:58pm

muso wrote on Oct 7^th, 2009 at 2:54pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 7^th, 2009 at 1:04pm:

muso wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 2:59pm:

On the whole, like human beings of all persuation, they genuinely mean what they genuinely believe.

Unless they intend to deceive.

( Eeek I just noticed that typo.) I think most religious people are fair dinkum. That's why I said 'on the whole" The ones who are not, are generally following another 'god' (Mammon). Most Tele-evangelists probably fall into that category.

Yes, all true. But referring to some comments of Brennan's and Aly's, Hitchens was calling them on their disingenuous intent. He was literally keeping the religious honest... which, of course, is an irony in itself.

That's why Australia could do with a Hitchens in Australian religious debate...

Back to top

« Last Edit: Oct 8^th, 2009 at 8:05am by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #28 - Oct 7^th, 2009 at 9:59pm

muso wrote on Oct 7^th, 2009 at 8:13am:

Soren wrote on Oct 6^th, 2009 at 10:38pm:

You are puzzled by the requirement of intelligence, I see.

I have no doubt that he is intelligent and that he encourages intelligent debate. However he should use his intelligence for more a worthwhile cause.

Considering your defence of religion in past posts, I just find your defence of Hitchens to be incongruous, although I share your implied suspicion of fundamentalism.

I don't have to agree with everything he says to think of him as a valuable and intelligent man. He offered his hand to Brennan at the end. He is a gentleman. And needless to say, he could only speak, write, publish (or indeed live) in secular countries which is in itself a great testament to such countries' Christian heritage.

He is intelligent and he is not malvolent. Compatred gto that, whether he agrees with me or I with him is a lot less important. Debating such men improve you, l either by making you reconsider untenable ideas or confirm those that withstand intelligent challenge.

Like the best debaters, he is not for group think. And I am glad to see that he confounds your reflex to box him (or me) in.

Back to top

IP Logged

abu_rashid Gold Member Offline Aussie Muslim Posts: 8353	Re: Hitchens in Australia Reply #29 - Oct 15^th, 2009 at 5:08pm helian I can't believe you think this pompous little turd has anything valuable to say. I'm just watching him now on ABC, and he's just babbling on with a load of crap, and the sheeple in the audience are just laughing on cue...
Back to top	IP Logged