Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print
Hitchens in Australia (Read 9743 times)
NorthOfNorth
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #30 - Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:27pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2009 at 5:08pm:
helian I can't believe you think this pompous little turd has anything valuable to say. I'm just watching him now on ABC, and he's just babbling on with a load of crap, and the sheeple in the audience are just laughing on cue...

Were you amused by Aly's apparent suggestion that Islamic morality is relative? That it's something that could possibly be put to a vote?
Back to top
 

Conviction is the art of being certain
 
IP Logged
 
NorthOfNorth
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #31 - Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:47pm
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:37pm:
I watched his speech at the FoDI, not the panel with Waleed Aly, although I did see a little bit of that as well. I think Aly spoke well actually, in the short time I watched it.

'well actually'? Sure, his diction was perfect, he was polite... but relative Islamic morality? Would you subscribe to that? I bet Aly doesn't either... He was clearly over-awed by the task... Sad actually.

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:37pm:
Hitchens was just pathetic. Regurgitating the same dull challenges to theists like "The Andromeda galaxy is on a collision course with us, what kind of benevolent God could let this happen".... Couldn't he come up with anything better? Sure they used to make this argument about natural disasters, and he did update it according to our new knowledge about cosmology... but it's the same tired old argument it always was.

I can't see what people find so appealing about him.. it's the same old same old.

Well, yes Hitchens spiel is repetitive as are theistic ones. In the end you either believe or you don't... There'll never be a knockout in this ring, not even a TKO. But it's fun to watch theists bouncing off the ropes.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2009 at 10:55pm by NorthOfNorth »  

Conviction is the art of being certain
 
IP Logged
 
mozzaok
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #32 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 6:58am
 
Abu?
Strange that you consider something as a tired old argument, when no theist has ever been able to offer anything cohesive, or intelligible, in response to it.

It is just a way to bring theists to question their whole dogma being built upon the idea of their god as the puppet master interventionist "being" that they portray him to be, and why so many find that to be a preposterous basis for any concept of the divine.
Back to top
 

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
IP Logged
 
mozzaok
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #33 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 7:07am
 
Muso?
Your continued defence of theists is frankly disturbing, because it smacks of the same moral cowardice that was seen displayed by the theists in the debate, as it willfully ignores the massive evils perpetrated upon the human psyche by "good" theists, who deem it appropriate to threaten all who will listen, with eternal tortures, of the worst kind they can imagine, as the penalty for not believing exactly the same things they do.

Religion is not, as innocuous as you like to portray it, there is a deep malevolence rooted in the basis of all creeds, that is unhealthy for any normal persons psyche, if they actually believe, and accept as unquestionably true, "All" the dictates of their relative dogmas.
Back to top
 

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #34 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 8:44am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 16th, 2009 at 7:07am:
Muso?
Your continued defence of theists is frankly disturbing, because it smacks of the same moral cowardice that was seen displayed by the theists in the debate, as it willfully ignores the massive evils perpetrated upon the human psyche by "good" theists, who deem it appropriate to threaten all who will listen, with eternal tortures, of the worst kind they can imagine, as the penalty for not believing exactly the same things they do.

Religion is not, as innocuous as you like to portray it, there is a deep malevolence rooted in the basis of all creeds, that is unhealthy for any normal persons psyche, if they actually believe, and accept as unquestionably true, "All" the dictates of their relative dogmas.


Mozzaok,

I think we have just about got the balance right in Australian society. You're confusing moral cowardice for what is actually intestinal fortitude to stand up for what I feel is right. I don't happen to believe in the Supernatural, but I respect the rights of other people to do so, and that respect transcends supporting the tenets of ugly anti-theism. These people are no better than the religious fundamentalists they oppose.

I am actually much more opposed to the concept of anti-theism than I am to moderate religion. Moderate Christianity (mainstream Anglican, Catholic etc) is a religion of love, tolerance and rationality (yes rationality). So too is Buddhism, and the vast majority of Muslim adherents.

You might argue that creationism represents a danger for our next generation. However, if you look at the demographics of religion in Australia, it becomes apparent that religion is the endangered species.    

You may argue that extremist religion brings out the worst in us, but I'd argue that it's actually the reverse. Those people who already have a predisposition to being socially destructive may choose to use extremist religion to further their mindset. Others may choose an ideology such as communism to focus their malevolent intent.

I don't buy into the Dawkins or the Hitchens type of argument that religion poisons society, and I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the non-religious in Australia just don't think that way.

So you can try to whip me into marching in your atheist parade all you want, but I will continue to have the courage to maintain my personal world view. That's a world view that has no place for extremists and boot-boys.

Please don't let that discourage you from following your growing flock of anti-theists, but just try to keep the noise down.

Fundamentists like Jimmy Swaggart and Pol Pot are equally anathema to my way of thinking. Pol Pot may have killed more people, but Jimmy Swaggart killed more brains in his time. They both share a psychopathic lust for power, and in reality they are not too different from each other.

Religion and culture are intertwined and difficult to separate. Like languages, religions represent another way of thinking - another way of seeing the world. They bring with them all kinds of interesting things - like Christmas, and those amazing whirling dervishes in Islam.  It will be a sad day if  Australia ever became a nation of atheists. Kill religions and you kill all kinds of cultural aspects which make life interesting.

Religions may have their faults, but I support the principles of religio-diversity.  Maybe I should start a charity and set off on my own lecture tour.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2009 at 2:43pm by muso »  

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #35 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 9:03am
 
I might add that I take a position that alienates me from possibly every other poster on this forum.

If that represents moral cowardice, then it's in a very strange format.
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
mozzaok
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #36 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 9:59am
 
If, any religion had the decency to review their teachings, and adapt them to actually mirroe the standards of decency and morality that we would wish for our society, then your point would be valid.

Do you think they do that?

I don't.

You have a strange misconception that anti-theists are actually about trying to denigrate peoples' beliefs, when all they really want is for people to honestly evaluate the belief systems, that are imposed on them from birth, in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, and question the aspects that are unacceptable in a modern society, and seek to have those negative elements removed from their dogma.

I have no issue with people believing what they want, up to the point where that belief starts to promote behaviours which have a negative impact on our society, and unfortunately all religious doctrines promote such beliefs.

The fact that most people ignore the teachings which promote such unacceptable behaviours is testament to the basic decency of all humans, rather than their respective dogmas removing abhorrent teachings from their fantastic scriptures.

Of course they are hamstrung by the fact that they have to allude to these abominations as "mysteries" beyond our ken, for to admit that their divine being, or prohet made an error, is something they consider anathema.

This inviolable wedding of anachronistic teachings onto a moral framework suitable for the 21st century, is where religions fail their followers miserably, and they need to somehow devise a way to address that issue, before they can be considered as anything less than a negative influence in our society.
Back to top
 

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #37 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 11:21am
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 16th, 2009 at 9:59am:
If, any religion had the decency to review their teachings, and adapt them to actually mirroe the standards of decency and morality that we would wish for our society, then your point would be valid.

Do you think they do that?


Actually I do. Certainly in the case of Roman Catholicism. They even have a tacid acceptance of intermarriage from other faiths and even contraception in Australia. There is a growing discontinuity between the position of Rome and the position of most Roman Catholics in Australia. They had a Galileo exhibition at the Vatican recently. Moderate religions evolve and they genuinely regret mistakes made in the past.  However, they don't answer to Christopher Hitchens or Richard Dawkins, and they tend to sort out these things for themselves. That's what I think, but maybe you should ask a Christian or a Muslim if their religions change to reflect the times.

Quote:
You have a strange misconception that anti-theists are actually about trying to denigrate peoples' beliefs, when all they really want is for people to honestly evaluate the belief systems, that are imposed on them from birth, in the overwhelmingly vast majority of cases, and question the aspects that are unacceptable in a modern society, and seek to have those negative elements removed from their dogma.


So titles like "The God Delusion", comparing Theism to a mental illness do not denigrate people's beliefs? Of course they denigrate. They take great delight in doing so.

Quote:
I have no issue with people believing what they want, up to the point where that belief starts to promote behaviours which have a negative impact on our society, and unfortunately all religious doctrines promote such beliefs.


Hmm the dismantling of a moral framework has probably done more harm to society than moderate religions ever did. I'm talking about Vicar of Dibley type Christianity rather than  Jerry Falwell style evangelism. The former is charming and rustic, the latter is insidious in an exclusivist and 'xenophobic' (or intolerant) way.

Quote:
The fact that most people ignore the teachings which promote such unacceptable behaviours is testament to the basic decency of all humans, rather than their respective dogmas removing abhorrent teachings from their fantastic scriptures.

It's all in the interpretation - and the interpretation has changed and evolved through the years to fit the changes in society.  A theist might call that divine inspiration. The scripture can certainly be misinterpreted by those of other faiths, or those atheists who think they know more than those who actually practice the faith. Yeah - anti-theistic atheists are arrogant. No argument there.

Quote:
This inviolable wedding of anachronistic teachings onto a moral framework suitable for the 21st century, is where religions fail their followers miserably, and they need to somehow devise a way to address that issue, before they can be considered as anything less than a negative influence in our society.


You need to step back and see the whole elephant. As an anti-theist, you are like the blind monk holding the elephants trunk and proclaiming - It's a thick rope!  You see what you want to see.

Hey - where are all the theists?
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 16th, 2009 at 11:28am by muso »  

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
mozzaok
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #38 - Oct 16th, 2009 at 8:39pm
 
Fair point about the God Delusion bit, I will concede that for many being confronted by people saying their deeply held beliefs are delusional, is confronting, but then again, if you do not want people to make fun of your beliefs, maybe they shouldn't have such funny beliefs.

As far as the elephant analogy, I contend that it is you, and theists who deliberately avert your eyes from the big picture, by harking back to the fact that moderate interpretation is somehow evidence of a religion's worth, when it merely displays the individuals worth, by ignoring the more obscene teachings of their religion, but that they should need to do that at all, is surely indicative of their religions malevolence, and their own ability to pretend the contradictions and ugly teachings are not really there.

Cherry picking philosophies that you like selectively from a creed is hardly displaying a real belief that the text they cherry pick from is truly of divine origins, but that sort of duplicity is what we expect from theists, if they are decent, and have a conscience, it is their only recourse, apart from admitting that their religion is all based on a totally false premise.

Better to maintain their delusion, than to have to develop a personal moral code that does not rely on accepting the mythical mish mash that is provided as god's unerring word.
Back to top
 

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #39 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 7:20am
 
Speaking frankly, and I'm not trying to score any debating points here, I think that Dawkins, Hitchens and others (including yourself) maintain a myth that the religion of today is totally immutable and that they somehow have an expectation of deference by society.

That's far from the truth. A couple of days ago I heard a program on ABC Radio that showed what it was like growing up as a Catholic in Australia in the 50's and 60's. Catholics wore brown shoes to school, protestants wore black, and Catholics were called "Catholic dogs', were spat on regularly, and intermarriage was regarded as 'living in sin'.  

Maybe that was the case back then, but we listen to stories like that with horror nowadays - Catholics, Protestants and the rest of us alike. We don't want to go back to those days. In that respect, society has changed for the better.

We live in a society where most people (by a slim majority) never actually marry, even if they want to have kids. Attitudes have changed in most churches because they had to change. The term 'bastard' is not really used nowadays, although it used to attract a great deal of stigma for those born outside wedlock.  

OK, I'll grant you that the Muslims seem to be a bit slower than others to adapt, but even there things will change eventually. Some of the younger people at least, seem to be less fundamental.

Some things have changed for the better, some things have got worse, but you certainbly can't blame religion for the dysfunction that exists in Australian society, because we're living in a Post-Christian society in Australia now - and churches at least are fully cogniscant of that fact, and  they have adapted to it. When were you last in church? Try going one day. You might see the light  Grin about immutable religions.

I've said this many times before, but the human brain is not 100% logical. Some of the ways we think are very 'idiomatic'. The vast majority of the human population loves 'irrational thought'. If you want the biggest religion in the world, it's Astrology. Some people make decisions on compatibility of a life partner on the basis of their star sign.  They don't get vaccinated, even though the risk assessment shows that the dangers of not getting vaccinated exceed those of vaccination complications by a factor of 1000 or more.  People are quite comfortable in their irrationality. Don't try to scare them with facts - it makes them uncomfortable.  That's how it is - tear your hair out all you like but it isn't going to change. Most people seem to muddle through life wthout thinking too deeply, and if something irrational gives them comfort, it's not a big deal. They still seem to have fun in life. They laugh, they love and they reproduce. Nothing is going to change that.

The latest stats show that only 9% of the population regularly attend religious worship. The remaining 91% are either religious and apathetic, agnostic or generic "non religious'. Having said that, there are a few worrying trends in the Federal government as evidenced by the protests of the so-called 'sex party' in Canberra recently.

I think public opinion will sort out things like that pretty quickly.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2009 at 7:30am by muso »  

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
mozzaok
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 6741
Melbourne
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #40 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 7:30am
 
Quote:
Speaking frankly, and I'm not trying to score any debating points here, I think that Dawkins, Hitchens and others (including yourself) maintain a myth that the religion of today is totally immutable and that they somehow have an expectation of deference by society.


How is that a myth?
It is a fact.
They have locked themselves into an ideology by setting the parameters when they first invented it.
As soon as they proclaimed they were delivering the "Word Of God", they were precluded from ever being able to change, and the fact that humans disregard what they claim as god's instructions, selectively, is testament to the human decency that most people are thankfully blessed with.

So whilst people can adapt their behaviours, the fact of their core dogmas immutable evils can only be overlooked by willful ignorance, and that is a good thing for us, but it also shows how silly, and flawed that their core creed is, and untiul that core creed is changed, so fundamentalist wackos cannot reference it as god's word, then religion will continue to receive the disdain it deserves, from people like me.
Back to top
 

OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #41 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 7:32am
 
Do you think that the mainstream religions in Australia  (Anglican and Catholic) have an expectation of deferance or respect from the rest of society?

In that respect they have changed.
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
NorthOfNorth
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #42 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 11:10am
 
abu_rashid wrote on Oct 15th, 2009 at 5:08pm:
helian I can't believe you think this pompous little turd has anything valuable to say. I'm just watching him now on ABC, and he's just babbling on with a load of crap, and the sheeple in the audience are just laughing on cue...

Well, Abu… Now its my turn to be nonplussed... By your faux apoplexy (having myself just watched Hitchens at the FODI) and I don’t believe you’re convinced that you’re not being disingenuous by it. Far from being pompous, Hitchens was the most relaxed, entertaining and funny as I’d ever seen him. He seems more happy in Australia than in the US…. Even sang a song at the end Grin

Don’t you think it was incredible that at a debate titled “religion poisons everything”, there was not a single religious figure on stage to challenge Hitchens? It didn’t appear that it was lost on Hitchens himself, who referred to Tony Jones jokingly as “the Reverend Jones” – a light hearted dig most probably to register his awareness of the cowardice of the religious elite in Australia. No Pell, no Hilali, not even an Aly.

And surely you’d applaud his offering a posthumous voice to the young Yemeni girl, compulsorily married at the age of eleven to a man three times her age, who died in childbirth, trying to give birth to a dead baby. He was highlighting the plight of the one quarter of Yemeni girls who are legally married before puberty.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Oct 17th, 2009 at 1:02pm by NorthOfNorth »  

Conviction is the art of being certain
 
IP Logged
 
muso
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 13151
Gladstone, Queensland
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #43 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 5:44pm
 
mozzaok wrote on Oct 17th, 2009 at 7:30am:
So whilst people can adapt their behaviours, the fact of their core dogmas immutable evils can only be overlooked by willful ignorance, and that is a good thing for us, but it also shows how silly, and flawed that their core creed is, and untiul that core creed is changed, so fundamentalist wackos cannot reference it as god's word, then religion will continue to receive the disdain it deserves, from people like me.


I guess the first major revision of Christianity took place at the First Council of Nicea in 325.  That gave rise to the Nicean Creed, one of many non scriptural sources that defines and changes the nature of religion.  Within all the mainstream churches, there is a process of review. Within the Catholic Church such changes are finally declared by the Pope himself, and the Anglican Church has a similar process.  

The interpretation of Scripture has changed enormously through the ages.

Take the case of the interpretation of adultery for example. The original intent of the adultery related commandment was that one man should not steal another man's wife. If a married man and a single woman had a sexual relationship, then there would be no question of adultery, even if the man was married already.

Obviously through the ages, the interpretation of that scripture has changed. You might see it as hypocritical, but a theologian sees it as a necessary adaptation to keep in line with society. Such change is seen as divine inspiration.

So to say that religion is totally immutable is a gross simplification.

I was hoping that some of the faithful would come to my aid here, because I'm probably getting beyond my depth.  If you really want better clarification of this subject, I can email a friend of mine who is a theology professor in Austria.
Back to top
 

...
1523 people like this. The remaining 7,134,765,234 do not 
 
IP Logged
 
Soren
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 25654
Gender: male
Re: Hitchens in Australia
Reply #44 - Oct 17th, 2009 at 9:20pm
 
God you can denounce all you like -you are going to be talking to the mirror anyway, to the god you imagine in your own image.

But go into an old church whose threshold has been worn hollow over the centuries. Stand in the stillness of that church - and then denounce the centuries of prayers, hopes and curses that were uttered by the men and women whose feet wore that threshhold hollow. Denounce them as deluded and I will call you a complete and utter prick. Whoever you are.



Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 
Send Topic Print