Australian Politics Forum - God despises man's religion

muso

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #15 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 11:34am

Yadda,

All I can say is that you are blind to the obvious problems that exist in the Bible. I avoid taking sacred verses out of context as you just did. Just to take one example, you can read in the Bible that the Earth is flat too. However, I don't have an agenda of ridiculing other people's religion.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

On that site, you'll find the Skeptic's annotated Qu'ran and Book of Mormon too. I don't buy into criticising things that I don't understand - the point I'm making is that maybe you should do follow the same principle.

Click on any of the symbols at the side to find examples relating to:

Injustice
Cruelty and Violence
Intolerance
Contradictions
Science and History
Interpretation
Family Values
Women
Good Stuff
Prophecy
Sex
Language
Homosexuality

Read the comments for the Bible, and you'll see how non-Christians can distort the interpretation. Just bear that in mind for a while, then read the comments made for the Qu'ran. Are you so naive as to agree with every distortion made for the Qu'ran on that site. Think about it.

If somebody is obviously a bad egg, and you get them, I usually keep my distance. The difference is that I don't automatically do that because they hold certain religious beliefs. I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes it is necessary to trust people. You don't go far unless you do. I also apply a sense of judgement in each situation. I tend not to use the word discrimination as it can be misconstrued, but you know what I mean.

Please don't denigrate Pope John Paul II. He had his faults, but he tried to bring mankind together like no other religious leader before him, and he certainly earned my respect.

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Yadda

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #16 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 12:40pm

muso wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 11:34am:

Yadda,

All I can say is that you are blind to the obvious problems that exist in the Bible. I avoid taking sacred verses out of context as you just did. Just to take one example, you can read in the Bible that the Earth is flat too. However, I don't have an agenda of ridiculing other people's religion.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

On that site, you'll find the Skeptic's annotated Qu'ran and Book of Mormon too. I don't buy into criticising things that I don't understand - the point I'm making is that maybe you should do follow the same principle.

Click on any of the symbols at the side to find examples relating to:

Injustice
Cruelty and Violence
Intolerance
Contradictions
Science and History
Interpretation
Family Values
Women
Good Stuff
Prophecy
Sex
Language
Homosexuality

Yes, the Skeptic's annotated Bible, Qu'ran, etc, is a wonderful resource, for religious sceptics. Grin

I am, i have been 'challenged', when perusing some of that information [relating to Bible texts].

But my faith is strong enough to say,
.....'Let them go for it. Let them do their worst. God forgive them.'

Quote:

Read the comments for the Bible, and you'll see how non-Christians can distort the interpretation. Just bear that in mind for a while, then read the comments made for the Qu'ran. Are you so naive as to agree with every distortion made for the Qu'ran on that site.
Think about it.

"O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him)."

Koran 9.123

"If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him;...."

Koran 3.85

muso,

God forgive me, for 'distorting'
, and 'misrepresenting'
the meaning of those two extracts [above] from the Koran.
/sarc offi
Quote:

Please don't denigrate Pope John Paul II. He had his faults, but he tried to bring mankind together like no other religious leader before him, and he certainly earned my respect.

I'm sorry if i offended you.

I was just calling it, as i saw it.

And that, i do not apologise for.

I don't apologise for speaking the TRUTH.

Not enough people do.

And that is a major reason why the world is in such a mess today, imo.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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muso

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #17 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 1:48pm

I guess it's easy to distort the meaning when translating from one language to another. However, the following verses are also quite explicit:

Quote:

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.

Nothing too subtle there. Now under what circumstances should this occur? (You don't have to answer that - I know the stock answer)

Matthew 11:

Quote:

11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.

What - the whole city? Nobody is worth saving?

Quote:

Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:

Does that include the parents of childhood leukemia sufferers?
Quote:

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

I'm not going to dwell on these quotations too much, but I brought them up to illustrate that anybody can pick violent and intolerent texts from the Bible too.

I think of it in terms of a young man with a girlfriend with whom he is in love. It doesn't matter what anybody says about her, the young man can see nothing but perfection in her. Other girls may have their faults but not his girlfriend.

It's very similar with Christians and Muslims and their respective faiths. For someone who doesn't come from a partisan position, it's patently obvious, but the smitten are very blind.

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mozzaok

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #18 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 2:56pm

I love this topic, "God despises man's religions".
I could not have put it better myself, I do despise man's religions, QED, praise me, lmao.

Perhaps this hatred for god is really a self hatred, and I am out to destroy belief in me, and I will disappear up a parallel paradox of logic.

When you think about it, it could be funny, the second coming, and Jesus descends on a cloud, expecting rapturous applause for his latest trick, he is even considering including it in a las vegas tour, with a bit of water walking, and wine converting thrown in, but instead he gets greeted by boos and moans of complaints.
"Fourthousand bleeding years we've been waiting for you. You couldn't be bothered with even an apparition to an illiterate goatherder to tell us you'd be back later than expected? Well that is only manners isn't it. Call yourself the son of god?, well we reckon you are a selfish plonker, now nick off, we have decided to wait for mohammed instead, he is coming next week, he wrote a note for us on a russian babies leg."

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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: God despises man's religion Reply #19 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 3:03pm He's late because he is coming by State Rail.
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muso Gold Member Offline Posts: 13151 Gladstone, Queensland Gender:	Re: God despises man's religion Reply #20 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 3:59pm Soren wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 3:03pm: He's late because he is coming by State Rail. I thought he was booked on Tiger Airways actually.
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mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: God despises man's religion Reply #21 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 7:41pm lol Tiger, I flew Tiger to the gold coast and the plane from melbourne cost $49 and the cab from the airport to the hotel cost $65, lmao, it is a damn crazy world, where an airplane flight of thousands of km's is cheaper than a good t shirt.
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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: God despises man's religion Reply #22 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 8:37pm muso wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 3:59pm: Soren wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 3:03pm: He's late because he is coming by State Rail. I thought he was booked on Tiger Airways actually. He was. But coming by State Rail, he missed the flight.
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Soren

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #23 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 9:11pm

muso wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 1:48pm:

I'm not going to dwell on these quotations too much, but I brought them up to illustrate that anybody can pick violent and intolerent texts from the Bible too.

I think of it in terms of a young man with a girlfriend with whom he is in love. It doesn't matter what anybody says about her, the young man can see nothing but perfection in her. Other girls may have their faults but not his girlfriend.

It's very similar with Christians and Muslims and their respective faiths. For someone who doesn't come from a partisan position, it's patently obvious, but the smitten are very blind.

Muso, speaking of blindness - only those whose mind has gone to multicultural jelly will equate today's christianity with today's Islam. It is great to show of a bit of learning and dexterity with internet search (we all do it, I am not exempt) but the pertinent point is simply obscured by such dazzles.

And to add insult to injury, if I may, your and mozza's impeccable secularist credentials are really christian values without belief in god. If you care to check your fundamental assumptions and values you'll find that they are all Christian: universal human right, equality of men and womn, tolerance, equality of races, working for a better tomorrow and the greater good, caring for the world not jut the self, and so on. Bits may be present in other cultures but the way they come together is unmistakably of Christian origin.
In the end, Christianity is judaism for gentiles, like secularism is Christianity for unbelievers.
(Mohammed tried to make a judaism for Arabs, until he was laughed out of court. The jews of Araby illustrated the addage: history happens first as tragedy (Jesus) and then as farce (Mohammed). But Mohammed had no sense of humour.)

And this is nothing new. It is preposterous to pretend that secularism is anything but the cintinuation of the Greco-Jewish-Christian tradition. Muslims wouldn't revolt against it if it wasn't. Young people wouldn't if it wasn't. You may not like it (young at heart tht you are), but you and mozz are Christians to the core as far as your values are oncerned. You will always be tourist in Islam and Buddhism, in a way you are not in Christianity.i

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muso

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #24 - Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 10:13pm

I have never denied that in cultural terms I come from a Christian based tradition. I think I stated that fact a long time ago. However to say that secularism is of Christian origins is a contradiction in terms. its origins lie in the Deist philosophers such as John Locke, and later another group of Deists who laid the foundations of the United States. Rather than being a consequence of Christinaity, they were a breakaway group. Ironically this separation of church and state was extremely strained under G W Bush.

You can hardly claim the equality of the sexes as being of Christian origins when Deuteronomy clearly stated that you shalt not covet your neighbor's wife or ass -- or any thing else that belongs to your neighbor. Women are clearly possessions. The New Testament is no different in that respect.

Quote:

Peter 3:1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives;

3:2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.

3:3 Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel;

Secularism may have been initiated in Western society, but it survived despite the Church, not because of it. The Vatican would certainly not have staged a Galileo exhibit this year had it not been for the influence of secularism in society.

As far as multiculturalism is concerned, it's an unavoidable fact in Australia. It's off topic on this board, but really - what do you seriously propose to do about it? Deport millions of people who are not white anglosaxons even if they were born here?

You can't turn back the clock, no matter how much it gripes you. We are a product of our history, for better or for worse. Nothing you say or do will change that. The whole world is multicultural, with the possible exception of Ireland and maybe Iceland, which is half Irish anyway. Grin

- and we have previously established that it's all the fault of the Irish Grin

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« Last Edit: Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 10:29pm by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #25 - Oct 24^th, 2009 at 1:08am

Soren wrote on Oct 23^rd, 2009 at 9:11pm:

And to add insult to injury, if I may, your and mozza's impeccable secularist credentials are really christian values without belief in god. If you care to check your fundamental assumptions and values you'll find that they are all Christian: universal human right, equality of men and womn, tolerance, equality of races, working for a better tomorrow and the greater good, caring for the world not jut the self, and so on. Bits may be present in other cultures but the way they come together is unmistakably of Christian origin.
In the end, Christianity is judaism for gentiles, like secularism is Christianity for unbelievers.

Equality of men and women? Yer righto Grin

Please open your Bible to 1 Timothy 2 and read verses 11-14

Quote:

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

In the end Christianity is about

Believing in one God,
the Father, the Almighty
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

Believing in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end

Believing in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of Life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.

Believing in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
acknowledging one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
looking for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come.

Note also that he came down ‘for us men and for our salvation’. Nothing about equality there.

Christianity has been de-fanged and tamed by secularism.

And virtues like honesty, tolerance, compassion, decency, hospitality, affability are universal human aspirations... That's why they find their way into religion... not the other way around.

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« Last Edit: Oct 24^th, 2009 at 6:23am by NorthOfNorth »

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Soren

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #26 - Oct 24^th, 2009 at 7:30am

I do not want to downplay the efforts of deists, atheists, agnoistics and the rest. But my point is that it is only with Chritianity that seculatrisation is possible and that, most importantly, secularism retains the essential values of existence and co-existnce found in Christianity.

I certainly do not want to swap quotes but the very fact that we are able to interpret within a recognisabl framework is significant. The departure of secularim from Christianity is in tone and emphasis and ritual practice.

Re women - somewhere it is said that there is no man or woman, jew or gentile in Christianity but all are equal before god. That is the foundation of a great deal of human right law in a way that, say, Islam or Hinduism could not possibly be.

Re multiculturalism -muso, you immediately lapse into race talk - as if the idea of multiculturalism was the same as multiracialism. Deportation of non-anglos? Is that the only alternative you can see to multiculturalism? What about assimilation?
Adopting to the host country (and its characteristics and custonms that made it attractive to the newcomer in the firts place) is the only basis of a sucsful immigration policy. We accept you if we see tht you, as a newcomer, make all the effort to accept us. Reciprocity. Not a hard concept.

The whole world is multicultural? What nonsense. Not 10 years ago Europe saw a long war of cultures. In Africa, it's the norm to hack the guys in the nxt valley. East Asia? India, Pakistan, Sri lanka? All multicultural?

What this has to do with the topic is that the universalism of Christianity is carried on by the universalism of secularity which has grown out of Christianity and could not have grown out of any other religion. So in secularism sheds therrors of ritual and error of dogma while the essence, the foundation is retained. That is what I want to convey.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #27 - Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:09am

Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 7:30am:

I do not want to downplay the efforts of deists, atheists, agnoistics and the rest. But my point is that it is only with Chritianity that seculatrisation is possible and that, most importantly, secularism retains the essential values of existence and co-existnce found in Christianity.

What this has to do with the topic is that the universalism of Christianity is carried on by the universalism of secularity which has grown out of Christianity and could not have grown out of any other religion. So in secularism sheds therrors of ritual and error of dogma while the essence, the foundation is retained. That is what I want to convey.

Secularism is entirely possible (and would always have been) with Buddhism. As Buddhism requires monks to liberate themselves from desire (including the craving for power) which, according to Buddhist teaching, is the result of ignorance, anger and greed, separating religion from the state in Buddhist countries is easily achievable... Many times more easily achievable than what the power-craving primates of Christianity have tolerated.

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« Last Edit: Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:47am by NorthOfNorth »

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muso

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #28 - Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:16am

I don't want to continue the multicultural topic here. Perhaps another board another time.

So you can cherry pick from the Bible and come to the conclusion that Christianity is egalitarian?

I don't really want to get into an anti-Christian argument either, because unlike others on this board, I see the benefits of religions, including Christianity. You can interpret that as weakness all you like, but I am old enough to know where I stand on this issue. The vast majority of the non-religious in this country (and the rest of the world) are non-antagonistic with respect to religion, but also non-vocal. Those who bother to post on boards like this are generally not representative of that majority. I consider myself an exception to that.

As Laozi (老子)once wrote:

Quote:

He who stands on his tiptoes can not stand firm.
He who stretches his legs can not easily walk.
So it is that he who displays himself does not shine
He who asserts his own views is not distinguished
He who vaunts himself does not find his merit acknowledged
He who is self- conceited has no superiority allowed to him. Such conditions, viewed from the standpoint of the Dao, are like remnants of food, or a tumour on the body, which all dislike.
Hence those who pursue the way
of the Dao do not adopt and allow them.

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« Last Edit: Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:48am by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: God despises man's religion
Reply #29 - Oct 24^th, 2009 at 9:14am

muso wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 8:16am:

I don't really want to get into an anti-Christian argument either, because unlike others on this board, I see the benefits of religions, including Christianity. You can interpret that as weakness all you like, but I am old enough to know where I stand on this issue. The vast majority of the non-religious in this country (and the rest of the world) are non-antagonistic with respect to religion, but also non-vocal. Those who bother to post on boards like this are generally not representative of that majority. I consider myself an exception to that.

Although you'd have to agree that absolutist, anachronistic texts, in which all religions abound, force an unacceptable rigidity to societal evolution and modern sensibilities... the inequality of men and women being just one such rather pernicious anachronism, the declared infallibility of the Pope being another.

The argument that secularism is or was only ever possible in a Christian society is clearly not true and, in fact, it’s secularism that’s having a profound and revolutionary effect on Christianity, which is in the throes of reinventing itself, mostly due (perhaps ironically) to the demands of the modern faithful who can no longer accept many doctrinal anachronisms. An example of this quiet revolution is Episcopalian Bishop Jack Spong, who advocates a Christianity without a literal ‘son of god’, virgin birth, miracles, twelve apostles, crucifixion and resurrection… In short a near complete rejection of the Nicene creed and (again perhaps ironically) more in keeping with the Islamic doctrine of Jesus.

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