Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 7:30am:

The departure of state authority from the church was to prevent Christian clergy using their influence and contrived moral authority to arrogate temporal power to themselves, which they attempted throughout history at every perceived opportunity.

Secularism, until very recently, was anathema to Christian clergy and particularly to Roman Catholic clergy and even today that abhorrence for secularism is most probably in the hearts and minds of the clergy... They just can't talk about it anymore.

A few ppl have been busy posting since my last appearance here.

muso, moz,  ....what soren said made a lot of sense to me.

what soren said, this thread,
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1256090277/23#23






muso said,
Quote:


muso,

This world and its afflictions, are what we suffer.

Hardships test us.

Yes?

Are you [or anyone else] the only one, who has suffered undeserved loss?

As some bar-room philosopher once quipped,

'Life's a bitch, and then you die.'

This is often true.


muso,

Many ppl suffer life's hardships, and curse God before they die.



But Job did not.


Job 1:14
And there came a messenger unto Job, and said, The oxen were plowing, and the asses feeding beside them:
15  And the Sabeans fell upon them, and took them away; yea, they have slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
16  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The fire of God is fallen from heaven, and hath burned up the sheep, and the servants, and consumed them; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
17  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said, The Chaldeans made out three bands, and fell upon the camels, and have carried them away, yea, and slain the servants with the edge of the sword; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee.
18  While he was yet speaking, there came also another, and said,

Thy sons and thy daughters were eating and drinking wine in their eldest brother's house:
19  And, behold, there came a great wind from the wilderness, and smote the four corners of the house, and it fell upon the young men, and they are dead; and I only am escaped alone to tell thee

.







muso,

You bitter complaining atheist!

My advice to you, is, to curse God and die.

That is my only advice, to those who are so full of rebellion and hatred, against God.



Regards Matthew 7:7   ???

That verse speaks to the spirit, not to the flesh.


John 3:6
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.


Jeremiah 4:22
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.



You are lost in the world.

We are all lost, in the world.

Go and camp in the wilderness [away from ppl] for 40 days [with only food and water, and your bed], and perchance, you will find God.

Yadda wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 3:29pm:



If that makes you feel good, fine - you bitter complaining Christian  

I noticed how you carefully avoided talking about the NT citations. Paul of Tarsus was probably the most bitter of all Christians, and he had a mean misogynistic streak a mile long. His brand of Christianity had more to do with traditional Greek values and attitudes than with love of his fellow humans.


I was just making the point that if you look in the Bible, you'll find verses that are frequently misconstrued. I'm sure that if you ask Abu without automatically assuming things, you'd get the view of a follower of that religion.

I'm not bitter. and I have no real problems with your religion as I've said many times before. On the whole, I think  it's a great thing to have a religion, and that many people benefit from religion. However I wish you would end this mutual denouncement game with Abu or anybody else that  doesn't share your views. It really makes you look like another bitter complaining Christian who yearns for the old days when you could actually hang somebody for blasphemy.

The only thing that separates you from the perpetrators of the Goan atrocities is time, and the fact that we now have laws that separate church and state, and prevent people from being tortured just because they have a different world view.

As far as Abu and yourself are concerned, I believe that both of you are reasonably well-intentioned, but you both get carried away in your faith and lose your sense of common decency as a result. If anything Abu has been a better ambassador for his faith. In the battle of Coles versus Woolworths, you're not exactly one of the fresh food people.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.

Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 12:04pm:
That would undermine your conviction that secularism is really just crypto-Christianity.

You are not encouraged by Christian practise (and mostly vehemently discouraged) to independently determine via reason what is good for society... Those truths are determined for you mostly (and historically exclusively) by the clergy.

Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 12:04pm:

The idea of secularism grew from the wariness of emperors, kings and princes towards the unrelenting and omnipresent threat of encroachment on temporal power by the ever-opportunistic clergy.

I have little doubt that the fathers of the enlightenment would have if they could have consigned religion itself to the dustbin of history... Just as they were in the process of doing with the idea of absolute temporal power being vested in a hereditary head-of-state.

In other words, their vision of the democratic state had only one contender for sovereign power remaining (once royal families and imperialistic overlords had been dispatched)... One that was much more pervasive and insidious than even the hereditary head-of-state... that contender being religion.

Religion is antithetical to secularism and the argument that it arose from Christianity is to misunderstand the opportunities offered by religion for the amassing of absolute temporal power... the dark allure of that power and the atrocities humans will commit to arrogate it and defend it against all pretenders.

Soren wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 9:12pm:

But secularism is about power, or the separation and apportionment thereof. Yes religion is obviously about more than just politics, but that is not the concern of secularism.

There is nothing inherent in Christianity that would steel its clergy against the allure of temporal power when they see an opportunity to arrogate it. In fact, there is no religious dogma ever written and institutionalised that places constraints on the human tendency to arrogate power more effectively than democratic secularism.

There is also no universal innate largesse in Christian clerics’ psyche that would allow for their voluntarily surrender of real power.

Morality and ethics doctrines, such as religions, are powerful sources of presumed temporal authority and their advocates do not seek to limit their respective belief systems’ socio-political reach by voluntarily submitting to a secular state administration, except under the threat of overwhelming force, particularly when that force is legitimized by the will of the majority.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 6:51pm:


It is difficult for us to come to that 'place', that [this] life in itself is not so important, when we believe, that the world offers us so much - right now.


JRR Tolkien knew.

His character Gandalf spoke truly,

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."

Gandalf - FOTR







Quote:


Believe that, if you must.





Quote:


Believe that, if you must.

The sadness is, in the hearts of those, to whom the spirit of God has not revealed himself.

That, is sad.





Quote:


Not by Hugh Hefner.

Hugh represented the cult of hedonism quite well i thought.

Hedonism is yet another God, of men.







Quote:



Thankfully, i have never let the religion of men to affect me so.



moz,

I'm sad, that the world offers you so little, but yet, you [and so many others] have determined that the world offers you all of the satisfaction which you will ever need.

Live with it.

And die with it.



The truth is,

There is so much more to know, and to experience.

I thank my God for his blessing.

I don't know why i was chosen, accepted.

But i thank him.

mozzaok wrote on Oct 24^th, 2009 at 6:51pm:


If that were all what they said, I'd be with you. But that is not what they say (those who know what they are talking about). Perhaps Nietzsche popularised that idea but he misunderstood both the Jews and the Christians. To his defence, and yours, many Christians do speak along the lines you despise and they are labouring under a misunderstanding.

To read the Song of Songs, say, and think that what it gives voice to despises this or any other life (being) is to be illiterate.

Yadda wrote on Oct 25^th, 2009 at 6:16pm:


Anyone who is not living under a rock will be aware of the pedophile scandals that have rocked the Catholic and Anglican churches.

If you're trying to say that a largely atheist society will commit more violent crime than a largely Christian society, I'd suggest you look at the actual statistics.

The trend is actually the reverse. I've posted the link to the Journal of Religion and Society before.  There is quite a strong correlation between Christianity and violent crime. The vast majority of prisoners on death row in the US are long-term Christians and a fair few of them probably did the right Christian thing and prayed for forgiveness afterwards.

I wondered about those statistics the first time I saw them. My personal theory is that a lot comes down to self-worth. In a distance race, if you keep telling yourself that you're a winner and that you can do it, then it will have a beneficial effect on your lap time.

If you keep telling yourself that you're a wretched sinner and that you have no hope on your own, then I guess that would  probably work in a similar fashion.  You may go on to commit heinous crimes comfortable in the knowledge that you can always plead for forgiveness and accept Jesus into your heart.

In the United States, the most Christian of societies, the most common violent crime is rape.