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Morality, is it relative? (Read 8656 times)
mozzaok
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Morality, is it relative?
Jan 25th, 2010 at 10:08am
 
I saw this picture of a child taken about 100 years ago, and started thinking that now that he has lived his life, we can know whether he led a good life, or a bad life, but if we had god-like powers of omniscience, we would know this from the start, and if we did, what choices would we make about his life?


Now as a child his potential is virtually unlimited, he could grow up to be a great scientist who finds a cure for cancer that rids the world of that terrible disease, but another child is born who will cause a fatal accident that sees them both die in their teens, and no cancer cure is then ever found.
So,  should we kill the other child first,  to prevent the tragic loss of this great mind, and it's subsequent discoveries?

Alternately, this child grows up to be a violent mass murderer, whose life brings great suffering and misery to many people, should we prevent the doctors from administering life saving medicine to him when he gets dangerously ill as a small child, and so dies before he grows up to commit evil acts?

Just how relative is morality?
Are any morals ever absloutely wrong, like killing for instance?

Is committing violence against many, more morally wrong, than committing violence against an individual?

In war time we see mass killings as necessary, and acceptable, and rationalise them as pro-active self defense, like the hiroshima bombing for an example, but just how do these sorts of actions stack up with religious teachings about morality?

Anyway, here is a photo of a kid now dead, would you be able to walk up and club his brains out if you knew he was going to be bad?

Would you kill someone else to prevent his death if you knew he was going to be a great man?

I do not know what I would choose, I guess being a god would be a pretty tough gig.
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OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma!
 
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Sprintcyclist
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #1 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 10:49am
 


Quote:
............Now as a child his potential is virtually unlimited, he could grow up to be a great scientist who finds a cure for cancer that rids the world of that terrible disease, but another child is born who will cause a fatal accident that sees them both die in their teens, and no cancer cure is then ever found.
So,  should we kill the other child first,  to prevent the tragic loss of this great mind, and it's subsequent discoveries?

Alternately, this child grows up to be a violent mass murderer, whose life brings great suffering and misery to many people, should we prevent the doctors from administering life saving medicine to him when he gets dangerously ill as a small child, and so dies before he grows up to commit evil acts? ................


yes, being God would be a tough gig.
it'ld be a breeze if everyone behaved themselves , but that ain't the case.
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #2 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 12:56pm
 
I think if you are an atheist there can be no absolutes and therefore everythings is relative.
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mozzaok
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #3 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 4:52pm
 
You are probably right pender, I know that I don't think in absolutes, and can usually imagine scenarios where different actions would have different consequences due to mitigating factors, but I think all of life is like that.

I do wonder about some religious teachings that set themselves up as absolutes, but in practice they are not.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #4 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 5:46pm
 
Is the act of murder not absolutely an act of evil?
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mozzaok
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #5 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 7:17pm
 
Yes, that was my original question, would it be wrong to murder this child pictured, if it prevented a thousand others from being murdered?

No?
What if prevented a million deaths?
No?

What about several million deaths?

Now we have a situation where some would say that not killing this child, if you knew by doing it you could prevent millions of unnecessary deaths, would be the immoral choice.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #6 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 7:26pm
 
Given the power of clairvoyance, the pertinent question would not be "is it wrong to murder this child?" but "is it murder to kill this child?".
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #7 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 10:27pm
 
Given that this is Hitler as a child, the question is seductive. But of course this is a picture of a child called Adolf Hitler, not of 'Hitler'.  The supplementary question is: was the child Hitler free to become 'Hitler', or was he fated to become 'Hitler'? If the later, morality is not even a concept. Animals, not being free, have no moral questions. And you were fated to become who you are. Ask yourself - how did you become who you are?

Was Larkin right?

This Be The Verse

They bugger you up, your mum and dad.
  They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
  And add some extra, just for you.

But they were buggered up in their turn
  By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
  And half at one another's throats.

Man hands on misery to man.
  It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
  And don't have any kids yourself.





Of course he was wrong, the miserable old bastard.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #8 - Jan 25th, 2010 at 11:14pm
 
And on the questions go...

Was the greater national karma of Germany fated to produce a Hitler? Such that the elimination of this Adolf Hitler gives rise to the opportunity for another... One that say hates Russians not Jews and so has Jewish scientists at his disposal for the creation of an atomic weapon.
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mozzaok
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #9 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:04am
 
I still wonder how many people could actually do it though? Actually kill a child, even if they knew it would grow up to be a monster?

As far as Hitler hating Russians, well he certainly hated Stalin's communist Russians, and many believe that if it were not for Stalin, then we would have seen a very different Hitler evolve, and  that he was just the first to realise what a monster he had as a neighbour.
Many saw his early moves in the war as attempts to create buffers against soviet aggression.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #10 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:48am
 
mozzaok wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:04am:
I still wonder how many people could actually do it though? Actually kill a child, even if they knew it would grow up to be a monster?

Psychopaths could do it. although in Himmler's SS, recruits who would be entrusted with committing the worst atrocities, were screened specifically to exclude psychopaths. As perversely ironic as it sounds, Himmler wanted only soldiers who took no pleasure in the acts they were charged with carrying out... Demonic idealists committed to the final solution.

But in the absence of clairvoyance, who could kill the child? In the absence of pathology or evil idealism, it would universally be murder in the absolute.
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #11 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:30am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:48am:
mozzaok wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 12:04am:
I still wonder how many people could actually do it though? Actually kill a child, even if they knew it would grow up to be a monster?

Psychopaths could do it. although in Himmler's SS, recruits who would be entrusted with committing the worst atrocities, were screened specifically to exclude psychopaths. As perversely ironic as it sounds, Himmler wanted only soldiers who took no pleasure in the acts they were charged with carrying out... Demonic idealists committed to the final solution.

But in the absence of clairvoyance, who could kill the child? In the absence of pathology or evil idealism, it would universally be murder in the absolute.



You are talking about sacrifice - sacrificing a child to avoid future calamity. It is a determinist, unfree, superstitious intinct we all have to some degree. But I think that we are free and that our task is to live with that firmly before our eyes. I think that is what morality is - each contingent being applying his freedom to each contingent situation. This is where the tension lies.  We experience it in ourselves all he time, the tension between our determined and free natures.
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #12 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:36am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:30am:
You are talking about sacrifice - sacrificing a child to avoid future calamity. It is a determinist, unfree, superstitious intinct we all have to some degree.

Yes, a hypothetical under the strictest of parameters, being that the actor has infallible powers of clairvoyance and that the killing of the child guarantees a better possible world. In the absence of those parameters (i.e. the real world), the killing of that child is eternally and absolutely murder.
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #13 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:41am
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:36am:
Soren wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:30am:
You are talking about sacrifice - sacrificing a child to avoid future calamity. It is a determinist, unfree, superstitious intinct we all have to some degree.

Yes, a hypothetical under the strictest of parameters, being that the actor has infallible powers of clairvoyance and that the killing of the child guarantees a better possible world. In the absence of those parameters (i.e. the real world), the killing of that child is eternally and absolutely murder.


... we are condemned to freedom...
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Re: Morality, is it relative?
Reply #14 - Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:51am
 
Soren wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:41am:
NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:36am:
Soren wrote on Jan 26th, 2010 at 10:30am:
You are talking about sacrifice - sacrificing a child to avoid future calamity. It is a determinist, unfree, superstitious intinct we all have to some degree.

Yes, a hypothetical under the strictest of parameters, being that the actor has infallible powers of clairvoyance and that the killing of the child guarantees a better possible world. In the absence of those parameters (i.e. the real world), the killing of that child is eternally and absolutely murder.


... we are condemned to freedom...

And redeemed only by absolute morality.
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