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The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan (Read 5903 times)
freediver
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #15 - Apr 22nd, 2010 at 9:31pm
 
Quote:
That's fine for you to state an opinion from your own personal perspective, but you haven't grown up there and probably haven't lived there, so to prejudge them and to think that most Afghan men want sex with boys is only displaying a learned ignorance.


What makes you think we think that? Obviously it is only targetted at the men who want to have sex with little boys. The men who want to have sex with little girls are allowed to marry up to four of them. But then they are stuck with them for life.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Apr 22nd, 2010 at 8:15am:
Quote:
“In Afghanistan, men don’t listen to their wives,” he says, “but I’m a cultured person, I discuss it with my wife first.”


Jesus Christ...what a hell-hole Afghanistan is. I'm writing an article at the moment about Afghani women and self immolation; the more research I do, the more I realise what a cesspool of corruption and horror that place is. It's heartbreaking.


Interesting. I hadn't seen that before.

http://www.warisboring.com/?p=467

“They Burn Themselves”
Wednesday August 01st 2007, 1:03 am
Filed under: Afghanistan, Iraq

    Amine … is 16 years old. She was forced to marry at the age of 14 but has many problems with her husband and his family. She doused herself with oil and set herself on fire to protest her unwanted marriage but her father says that she must return to her husband because there is no such thing as divorce in their family. She has burns over 33% of her body. She has vowed to kill herself if forced to go back.

self-immolation_afghanistan.jpgSo reports WIB-pal Anne Holmes, aka Vigilante Journalist, from Herat, Afghanistan:

    Many young Afghan girls are forced to marry men who are much older than them. Often they suffer physical, sexual and psychological abuses at the hands of their husbands and/or his family. These young women are also often forced into prostitution by their husbands but rarely admit this publicly because it is too shameful in Afghan society. Setting themselves on fire is a common form of protest or suicide, but there are virtually no social services in place to help these young women out of their situations and accord them their proper rights. Most of them are forced to go back to their unwanted husbands and it is unclear what their fate is thereafter.

It’s not just an Afghan problem. Self-immolation is all too common in many Islamic cultures. I reported on the tragic phenomenon from Iraqi Kurdistan last year for The Village Voice:

    “Here in Kurdistan, there is a lot of violence against Kurdish women,” [radio host Sirwa] Ali says in delicate English. She’s an Iranian Kurd by birth, a swimmer by training, and superbly educated by Iraqi standards, lending a quiet confidence to her words. Asked who is perpetrating this violence, she doesn’t hesitate: “Men, of course. Husbands, brothers, fathers, managers. All men.”

    Abuse drives many Kurdish women to suicide, says Ali. “Here in Kurdistan, most women, when they want to kill themselves, they burn themselves. I don’t know why.”

    Regional assemblywoman Vian Dizyee does. She says that in a society where women have few resources at their disposal, sophisticated methods of suicide are impossible. So women self-immolate using household items like cooking fuel and matches.
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Karnal
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #16 - Apr 23rd, 2010 at 10:20am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 22nd, 2010 at 7:00pm:
Indeed. Actually, just 'thinking' would go an unusually long way in this case.

The Enterprise of Nations
by David S. Landes
Critics have tried to explain away the West’s centuries-long economic domination of the globe; they would do better to study its lessons.
http://www.wilsonquarterly.com/article.cfm?AID=1613


A taste:
"The older centers of hither and farther Asia—the Islamic world, India, and China—lacked the cultural and institutional foundations on which entrepreneurship rested. Worse: They tended to cling to tradition in a world of disturbing and disagreeable challenge. Both China and the Arabic Middle East offer case studies of this resistance to innovation and the subsequent national revenge against those they blamed for the economic disparities that ensued. Both impoverished themselves by insisting on their cultural, moral, and technical superiority over the barbarians around them, by refusing to learn from people they scorned as inferiors, by simply refusing to learn. Pride is poison, and as the proverb puts it, pride goeth before a fall."



Just so.

Barbarians, like the Afghans, are barbarians because they would not learn. They think they know all there is to know. They would not learn because they think it is beneath them.  Not for them 'enlightened self-interest'.


This has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic, Soren, but it warrants a reply.

China is successful, not because it has embraced freemarket policies, but because it has maintained a form of state corporatism: keeping the yuan down, keeping wages down, and maintaining high state ownership of key industries.

The "barbarian" economies of UAE, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have high GDPs, and in the case of the Saudis, 80% of industry is state owned.

The reason the US said they went into Iraq, if you remember (after the WMD excuse backfired), was to spread "freedom" and "democracy" throughout the region. What this meant is they wanted to open up countries like Saudi Arabia to foreign investment. Read: open them up to US markets.

The countries in your article that have supposedly done so well from free-market policies, like Ireland and Finland, have suffered hugely through the GFC and their reliance on the fickleness of the global financial markets, and herein lies the rub:

The free-trade policies championed in your article have produced nothing but financial speculation. It's not about innovation, or starting up a business and taking a risk, just the transfer of existing capital. Most speculation, like that of the big hedge funds, acts to transfer the risk to someone else. Globalization is a response to surplus capital, and a complete lack of innovation or real investment. It's also a reaction to over-supply and the need for increased growth. Globalization - and its free-market stewardship - is almost solely about commodity and currency speculation, not any trickle-down solutions for the world's poor. Most global investment is spent on corporate takeovers.

This is why Africa is still dirt-poor, and not because of the lack of air conditioning. African slaves in another era of free-market globalization did not have the luxury of air conditioning either.

And the reason Australia is so rich? Not because of any Western brains-trust or "natural" superiority, but because, like the "barbarian" economies of Saudi Arabia, UAE and Kuwait, of what lies underneath: (in our case) coal and iron ore - and China's willingness to snap it up at any price.

Lucky country indeed.

The Woodrow Wilson International Centre for Scholars seems to have missed the latest crash in world speculative markets since 1987 and 2001: the Global Financial Crisis of 2008, and the crucial lessons to be learned from this.

Interesting that your article says this:

"Both (China and Arabic countries) impoverished themselves by insisting on their cultural, moral, and technical superiority over the barbarians around them, by refusing to learn from people they scorned as inferiors, by simply refusing to learn. Pride is poison, and as the proverb puts it, pride goeth before a fall."

The US's escapade into Iraq was exactly what the argument above demonstrates: national revenge on the economic disparities that ensued from the oil crisies of the early 1970s (when Cheney and Rumsfeld were in the White House), and then the recession of 2000-2001 caused by the tech bubble bust. Not to mention the US's addiction to oil, and their unwillingness to innovate new sources of fuel.

But before you blame the Afghanis for being too arrogant to learn, ask yourself why the current situation in Afghanistan (post-Soviet invasion, post-Taliban, post-US invasion) might make it a rather unattractive site for foreign investment.

Unlike Iraq, there aren't a lot of state-owned industries to sell off two weeks after the Americans move in.

There is always the opium, I guess. And that IS doing well: the reason the heroin drought has now broken in Australia. Now there's a real global industry for you, not mere currency speculation or corporate takeover.

Anyway, back to the dancing boys...

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Soren
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #17 - Apr 23rd, 2010 at 8:17pm
 
There is so much nonsense in this post that I don't think I have the strength to address them all. But briefly:

China is successful in a very narrow sense only- it has an artificial trade surplus. In another sense it is on the verge of unimaginable conflagration.

Saudi et all ARE open to foreign investment. Indeed, without foreign investment and effort, there would be no oil industry there. Probablly there would be no Saudi - just as there woul be no 'kuwait'. These places exists because we indulged them - we went along with the wheeze that they are countries and not just rival gangs.

The grim Islamists are sore to the extent that these make-belief countries are open to foreign investment and the effort that comes with protecting that investment. They don't like that we are taking sides in their age-old gang warfare. Look at the Koran it is the chronicle of gang war.

Afghanistan - you would be as ignorant of the place as you are of much else if they had not been behind flying planes into the World Trade Centre. The only significance of Afghanistan, ever, has been that it is IN THE WAY. All they have ever done is rub people up the wrong way. They are not poor because they are 'too arrogant' to learn. No. They are too stupid to learn. They are stupid because they, like all other barbarians, think that there is a royal road to - what exactly? Back to past glory. That's all they want. Fantasy land. They are all fantasising about some imaginary glory 'back when'.

The US went into Iraq to 'kill the chicken and let the monkeys watch'. The US, or Australia for that matter, are not in the business of recreating the glorious past. Learning and renewal are the only way for these countries to be. There is no past worth returning to because the mindset is that today is better than yesterday. For the barbarian who are too stupid to learn, today is only as good as it approximates the mythical golden 'yesterday' For them, everything is in the service of what's gone, irretrievably. Today is in the service of the glory that was yesterday. Stupid.

Australia: this country is not only rich but decent. Can't say that for China, Saudi or all others. On the other hand, Finland was not well-off even before Nokia just because of all the timber. Denmark is not well off because of all the milk and blue cheese. Only the barbarians think that money is the answer. They want money to recreate their past. Australia or the US strive to actually make life better for actual people.

The dancing boys of Afghanistan are as good an indicator of the pathologies of barbarian places as any. In the context of Islam, they sadly illustrate the massive gap between lofty idealism and sordid reality. No culture is free from this discrepancy. How they deal with it varies enormously. Barbarians pretend it's a non-issue. Civilised people grapple with the mismatch between ideals and realities. ANd most importantly, they take on the responsibility for their own shortcomings.

Barbarians, having learned only one thing from the civilised, will always stop at merely crying for compo and for absolution for their own deeds. ANd are forever looking,  shiftilily, for someone else to blame for where and what they are.  No Islamic country (no barbarian country)  will take responsibility for its falling so short of all its ideals. Barbarians are unselfconscious. That's what barbarity is.






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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #18 - Apr 23rd, 2010 at 10:22pm
 
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China is successful, not because it has embraced freemarket policies, but because it has maintained a form of state corporatism


It is successful because it is keeping it's population down, and because it is moving steadily towards capitalism without making all the mistakes that Russia made. It still has a long way to go and it still has to get rid of all the barriers to free trade.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #19 - Apr 25th, 2010 at 12:39am
 
Soren wrote on Apr 23rd, 2010 at 8:17pm:
There is so much nonsense in this post that I don't think I have the strength to address them all. But briefly:

China is successful in a very narrow sense only- it has an artificial trade surplus. In another sense it is on the verge of unimaginable conflagration.

Saudi et all ARE open to foreign investment. Indeed, without foreign investment and effort, there would be no oil industry there. Probablly there would be no Saudi - just as there woul be no 'kuwait'. These places exists because we indulged them - we went along with the wheeze that they are countries and not just rival gangs.


I agree completely about China, but you'd hardly call them barbarians. There are many aspects to the war in Iraq, but on the face of it, the US wanted to introduce freedom and democracy to the Middle East.

Freedom means free markets, and nothing else. This agenda wants privatization in all areas, not just oil exports (although this is the one area where the US are allied to Saudi Arabia).

Democracy is much more obscure. The US have supported Arab fiefdoms for years. Democracy? From Diem to Pinochet to Saddam, the US NEVER supports democracy. Anyway, the US can't support democracy: it must be built from the ground up.

So democracy was a lie.

But what the US really wanted was to "secure" oil reserves, meaning keeping them in Western hands and out of the control of China. This is the US's bargaining chip, and it's why they've got their eye on Iran most of all.

Iran and China have united, and this is their worry.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #20 - Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:32am
 
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Anyway, the US can't support democracy: it must be built from the ground up.


It's easier to do that if the supporters of democracy aren't getting killed off by the current dictator.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #21 - Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:58pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 25th, 2010 at 12:39am:
Freedom means free markets, and nothing else.



Look, just that one line shows that you are talking sh!t as a matter of personal policy.  
Be contrarian, be post-modern, be challenging. But don't be just another I-am-thick-and-proud-of-it idiot.





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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #22 - Apr 25th, 2010 at 9:09pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 25th, 2010 at 12:39am:
I agree completely about China, but you'd hardly call them barbarians.


Yes, you can safely call them barbarians. Simply look at them and see how they treat each other. See how they treat their weak, their unfortunate. See how they treat their minorities.  See how they treat their animals. See how they organise their country, their society.  Being around for  a long time does not matter in itself. Australia has been around for a mere 222 years, yet it it more civilised than China.


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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #23 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 4:58pm
 
Soren wrote on Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:58pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 25th, 2010 at 12:39am:
Freedom means free markets, and nothing else.


Look, just that one line shows that you are talking sh!t as a matter of personal policy.  
Be contrarian, be post-modern, be challenging. But don't be just another I-am-thick-and-proud-of-it idiot.



Well, rebutt away. Tell me why I'm talking sh!t.

If you can't, I'll continue to be "contrarian." Contrarian to whom?

I'm assuming you mean the Wilsonian Institute, who - let me see -  advocate a strong interventionalist foreign policy agenda for which global power?

That would be the US, right?

Sorry to be so thick.





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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #24 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 5:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 25th, 2010 at 8:32am:
Quote:
Anyway, the US can't support democracy: it must be built from the ground up.


It's easier to do that if the supporters of democracy aren't getting killed off by the current dictator.


But harder to do that if you actively support dictators.

If you can tell me of one "democracy" that the US has supported or installed since, say, the Korean War, I'll eat my hat.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #25 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 8:59pm
 
How about two? Afghanistan. Iraq.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #26 - Apr 27th, 2010 at 9:10pm
 
What about germany karnal, does that count?
The US always supported the re-unification of germany, and that did help get rid of that totalitarian regime in east germany as I recall it, in fact the whole eastern bloc, but I could be wrong.

People get far too carried away believing things have to always be black and white, when it is always just shades of grey.

Sure the US have a lot of blood on their hands from supporting imperialist  style foreign policy after WW2, but they did have real threats to deal with, like communism to name one, they were not operating in a vacuum.

It is often the lesser evil we strive for, as utopia has proved as elusive as ever.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #27 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 9:44am
 
freediver wrote on Apr 27th, 2010 at 8:59pm:
How about two? Afghanistan. Iraq.


I'm still wearing my hat, FD.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #28 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 9:57am
 
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Democracy support is a long-term investment, but when coupled with diplomatic commitment, it works. Critics of this policy need only look to Chile, El Salvador, South Korea, Taiwan, Georgia, or Ukraine, countries where U.S. administrations patiently employed democracy policies for seven to ten years before the "overnight" victories of citizens against entrenched regimes. In all of these countries, regional experts counseled that, for various cultural reasons, democracy could not take root, and realists counseled that democracy should not take root


That was taken from an article at a site about Middle Eastern Politics.
http://www.meforum.org/942/will-us-democratization-policy-work

I hope it is one of those 'Nacho" hats karnal.
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Re: The Dancing Boys of Afghanistan
Reply #29 - Apr 28th, 2010 at 9:57am
 
mozzaok wrote on Apr 27th, 2010 at 9:10pm:
What about germany karnal, does that count?
The US always supported the re-unification of germany, and that did help get rid of that totalitarian regime in east germany as I recall it, in fact the whole eastern bloc, but I could be wrong.

People get far too carried away believing things have to always be black and white, when it is always just shades of grey.

Sure the US have a lot of blood on their hands from supporting imperialist  style foreign policy after WW2, but they did have real threats to deal with, like communism to name one, they were not operating in a vacuum.

It is often the lesser evil we strive for, as utopia has proved as elusive as ever.


Good point. You could also say Japan.

And actually, you could also say Israel, but they did liberal democracy on their own.

But since the Cold War, I can't think of one. Pinnochet? Saddam? The Contras? My point is that these dictatorships all prove "destabilising" in the end. They might narrowly advance US interests in the short-term, but they fail in the long run.

Which is why, of course, Bush vered away from foreign policy "realism" towards the moral cause of imposing "democracy." This project of democratisation, however, was always intended to be strictly in the US's interests, which is why they held off on elections in Iraq. This allowed the US contractors and Rebublican allies to grab what they could. This gave them the time to sell off state assets and demolish the machinery of state.

A policy the US did NOT do in Germany, where they often left low-key Nazi administrators to do their jobs.

The "lesser evil" you could say.
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