Australian Politics Forum - Does Gods character evolve?

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Does Gods character evolve? Reply #45 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:05pm So? The jews were not war-like for 2000 years, since th destruction of the second temple. Does that mean that they were no longer jews? You seem to latch only the trivial and make it a principle.
Back to top	IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #46 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:10pm

Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:05pm:

So?

The jews were not war-like for 2000 years, since th destruction of the second temple. Does that mean that they were no longer jews?

You seem to latch only the trivial and make it a principle.

Judaism is all about the law and adherence to the 613 Mitzvot.

That is what defines Judaism more than its monotheism.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #47 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:16pm

The point of those 613 laws is that they come from a personal god, the one and only, who in his wisdom happened to chose the jews as the vehicle for his plans. And were the jews miffed!
At any rate, those laws are not acts of parliament but the laws of a single Lord of Hosts who created everything and so on and so forth. One god. 613 laws given by that one god. That's the only reason to adhere to those laws.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #48 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:20pm

Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:16pm:

The point of those 613 laws is that they come from a personal god, the one and only, who in his wisdom happened to chose the jews as the vehicle for his plans. And were the jews miffed!
At any rate, those laws are not acts of parliament but the laws of a single Lord of Hosts who created everything and so on and so forth. One god. 613 laws given by that one god. That's the only reason to adhere to those laws.

That's right. And adherence to those laws is the sine qua non of Judaism. Without the law its not Judaism, nor a sect of Judaism nor anything a Jew would recognise as even remotely Jewish.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #49 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:32pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:20pm:

Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:16pm:

The point of those 613 laws is that they come from a personal god, the one and only, who in his wisdom happened to chose the jews as the vehicle for his plans. And were the jews miffed!
At any rate, those laws are not acts of parliament but the laws of a single Lord of Hosts who created everything and so on and so forth. One god. 613 laws given by that one god. That's the only reason to adhere to those laws.

That's right. And adherence to those laws is the sine qua non of Judaism. Without the law its not Judaism, nor a sect of Judaism nor anything a Jew would recognise as even remotely Jewish.

What came first, though? The laws or Yahweh? Yahweh. No god, no laws. It is a misunderstanding to say that judaism is only about those laws, as if their divine source was secondary and not primary.

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #50 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:36pm

Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:32pm:

What came first, though? The laws or Yahweh? Yahweh. No god, no laws. It is a misunderstanding to say that judaism is only about those laws, as if their divine source was secondary and not primary.

And Yahweh chose his people and gave them the law. If you're not keeping the law, you're not worshipping Yahweh.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Does Gods character evolve? Reply #51 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 11:34pm NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:36pm: If you're not keeping the law, you're not worshipping Yahweh. That's a step too far.
Back to top	IP Logged

NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Does Gods character evolve? Reply #52 - May 2^nd, 2010 at 11:58pm Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 11:34pm: NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:36pm: If you're not keeping the law, you're not worshipping Yahweh. That's a step too far. Ask a Jew... After all, he's their god.
Back to top	Conviction is the art of being certain IP Logged

Sprintcyclist Moderator Offline OzPolitic Posts: 40723 Gender:	Re: Does Gods character evolve? Reply #53 - May 3^rd, 2010 at 5:04am i tend to agree with that. if oone worshipped yahweh, one would be obedient to his laws. As a ...sign of ones belief. and more
Back to top	Modern Classic Right Wing IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #54 - May 4^th, 2010 at 1:40pm

It must also be conceded by those who question Mohammed's claim to have had divine interlocutions, that Christian theology was established by a man who made exactly the same claims about himself. This was Paul's sole claim to authority equal to or above the Jerusalem Council. That Council initially reluctantly accepted his claims then later vehemently repudiated them after he began preaching a heresy so grave they wanted him dead.

It would be the claim of all Jews that Christianity misunderstands and misrepresents Judaism whenever Christians assert that Pauline Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

They would also challenge the belief that Christians are in fact worshipping the same god.

Back to top

« Last Edit: May 5^th, 2010 at 7:46am by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren

Gold Member

Offline

Posts: 25654
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #55 - May 4^th, 2010 at 2:58pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 11:58pm:

Soren wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 11:34pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 2^nd, 2010 at 10:36pm:

If you're not keeping the law, you're not worshipping Yahweh.

That's a step too far.

Ask a Jew... After all, he's their god.

Jewish law distinguishes between the (particular) covenant between G-d and the children of Israel (brit Sinai), and the universal covenant G-d makes with humanity (brit Noach). The latter is expressed in the seven Noahide laws: the prohibitions against idolatry, blasphemy, murder, theft, illicit sexual relations and undue cruelty to animals ("a limb from a living animal"), together with a positive command to establish a system of justice. Together they constitute the minimum threshold of human civilization under the sovereignty of G-d, and an individual who satisfies them has "a share in the world to come". They are, as it were, the "depth grammar" of the multiple languages in which humanity addresses itself to G-d.

The importance of this idea is that it constitutes a rejection of the view that one religion alone holds the key to salvation (extra ecclesiam non est salus) - a view that has historically been the basis for "holy war", that is, a war designed to spread the one true faith by force. Such an idea is unknown in Judaism.

http://www.chiefrabbi.org/ReadArtical.aspx?id=1047

Back to top

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #56 - May 5^th, 2010 at 7:43am

So no necessity to recognise Yahweh as the god worshipped for the non-Jew to have a share in 'the world to come'.

If an Orthodox Jew is the arbiter of what is idolatry, then Christians (Catholics and Orthodox) are idolaters and so not only worship another god, but don't have a share in the world to come. That would include Hindus and Buddhists as well.

Of religious monism, all the major extant religions are monist. That all is One, is of the One or created by the One is near universal and not in dispute... Only the ontology of the One, or the fact of the One's ontology is in dispute.

In monist terms, the definition of god, by that fact, renders the entity defined as less than the One, for the One must be above definition as it must include all things within itself... including itself.

Yahweh, the Christian god and Allah, once defined or endowed with character and personality, therefore, are rendered three gods among many.

Back to top

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged

Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Does Gods character evolve? Reply #57 - May 5^th, 2010 at 9:04am Helian, Travis is using your login details.
Back to top	IP Logged

Sprintcyclist

Moderator

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 40723
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #58 - May 5^th, 2010 at 9:37am

helian - Quote:

........It would be the claim of all Jews that Christianity misunderstands and misrepresents Judaism whenever Christians assert that Pauline Christianity is an extension of Judaism.

They would also challenge the belief that Christians are in fact worshipping the same god.......

As I see it, jews are still awaiting the coming of Jesus.
They believe Jesus was not the one prophesied about in the OT.

The jewish and christian gods are one in the same.
Different paths to the same destination.

mohammad is not hinted to in the OT or NT.
the koran and the bible are in opposition, they tell a different story.

Back to top

Modern Classic Right Wing

IP Logged

NorthOfNorth

Gold Member

Offline

OzPolitic

Posts: 17258
Gender: male

Re: Does Gods character evolve?
Reply #59 - May 5^th, 2010 at 10:19am

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 9:37am:

helian -
As I see it, jews are still awaiting the coming of Jesus.
They believe Jesus was not the one prophesied about in the OT.

They await the coming of the Messiah and Judaic scripture prophesies him as a military leader. The fact that the gospels make an acrobatic feat of jamming the Jesus story into the Judaic Messiah prophesy, indicates that Jesus was not a candidate for Messiah-ship in the first place.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 9:37am:

The jewish and christian gods are one in the same.
Different paths to the same destination.

More 'philoso-babble' than practised. The trinity is anathema to Judaism.

Sprintcyclist wrote on May 5^th, 2010 at 9:37am:

mohammad is not hinted to in the OT or NT.
the koran and the bible are in opposition, they tell a different story.

Jesus is not mentioned in the OT.

Back to top

« Last Edit: May 5^th, 2010 at 10:31am by NorthOfNorth »

Conviction is the art of being certain

IP Logged