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No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets (Read 2354 times)
freediver
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No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
May 9th, 2010 at 8:25pm
 
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/05/07/wired.terrorist.drone.strikes/index.html?hpt=C1

(WIRED ) -- Once upon a time, the CIA had to know a militant's name before putting him up for a robotic targeted killing. Now, if the guy acts like a guerrilla, it's enough to call in a drone strike.

It's another sign of that a once-limited, once-covert program to off senior terrorist leaders has morphed into a full-scale -- if undeclared -- war in Pakistan. And in a war, you don't need to know the name of someone on the other side before you take a shot.

Across the border, in Afghanistan, the rules for launching an airstrike have become tighter than a balled fist. Dropping a bomb from above is now a tactic of last resort; even when U.S. troops are under fire, commanders are reluctant to authorize air strikes.

In Pakistan, however, the opposite has happened. Starting in the latter days of the Bush administration, and accelerating under the Obama presidency, drone pilots have become more and more free to launch their weapons.

"You've had an expanded target set for [some] time now and, given the danger these groups pose and their relative inaccessibility, these kinds of strikes -- precise and effective -- have become almost like the cannon fire of this war. They're no longer extraordinary or even unusual," one American official tells CNN.

This official -- like many other officials -- insists that the drone strikes have torn up the ranks of militants.

"The enemy has lost not just operational leaders and facilitators -- people whose names we know -- but formations of fighters and other terrorists," the official tells the Los Angeles Times. "We might not always have their names, but ... these are people whose actions over time have made it obvious that they are a threat."

National security law experts, inside the government and out, are in the middle of an intense debate over whether the remotely piloted attacks are legal. One leading law professor told Congress last week that the drone operators could be tried for "war crimes," under certain circumstances.

The State Department's top lawyer counters that the drone attacks are a legitimate act of self-defense.

The connection between the robotic strikes over there and our safety here appears to be growing, The Pakistani Taliban, who have claimed credit for the botched Times Square bombing, say the car bomb was in retaliation for drone strikes.

But the robotic aircraft are only one component in the war in Pakistan. American troops are on the ground there, and getting into firefights. American contractors are operating a fleet of helicopters above. Higher in the sky are the American drones, flown by the U.S. Air Force and the CIA.
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nanatehay
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #1 - May 10th, 2010 at 3:58pm
 
There has indeed been a lot of debate over whether the drone strikes are war crimes, though surprisingly little outrage over the Taliban attacking Afghan schoolgirls or blowing up Pakistani civilians in crowded markets.  What I find interesting is that so many people react to the idea of using drones to kill people as if it's somehow worse than killing with more traditional weapons systems such as artillery or manned aircraft. It's becoming increasingly clear that the program is hurting the extremists, but the jury is still out on whether civilian casualties (which are always inflated by Taliban propagandists) inflicted by the Predators are hurting our cause more than the disruption of terrorist networks is helping it. It all comes back to one simple fact though; there's no other way to strike at Al Qaeda and Taliban leadership without getting into a ground war in the tribal areas.
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« Last Edit: May 10th, 2010 at 4:14pm by nanatehay »  
 
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Calanen
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #2 - May 10th, 2010 at 9:41pm
 
Apparently the deal with Pakistan is that the Pakistani government permits it clandestinely, but has a free hand to publicly denounce the USA for using drone strikes, in return for getting cash.
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Soren
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #3 - May 10th, 2010 at 9:51pm
 
freediver wrote on May 9th, 2010 at 8:25pm:
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/05/07/wired.terrorist.drone.strikes/index.html?hpt=C1

And in a war, you don't need to know the name of someone on the other side before you take a shot.


That's right. He's the enemy. Or Johnny Enemy, if you prefer.

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Karnal
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #4 - May 12th, 2010 at 5:27pm
 
nanatehay wrote on May 10th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
There has indeed been a lot of debate over whether the drone strikes are war crimes, though surprisingly little outrage over the Taliban attacking Afghan schoolgirls or blowing up Pakistani civilians in crowded markets.  What I find interesting is that so many people react to the idea of using drones to kill people as if it's somehow worse than killing with more traditional weapons systems such as artillery or manned aircraft.


Whatever happened to the "guns-don't-kill-people" argument?

Bombing raids traditionally follow a declaration of war. Sure, Cambodia and Panama have been notable exceptions, but you'll never get the US before a war crimes tribunal. They're not on the Security Council for nothing.

But if you support the US sending a drone into your backyard and blowing up anything they want by remote control, you might as well support Osama. I can't see the difference.

Still, it must be fun to have the technology to send a remote control robot anywhere you want and just blow away any old thing that walks past.

From a desk in Huston, Texas, everyone's the enemy.
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nanatehay
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #5 - May 12th, 2010 at 7:49pm
 
Quote:
Whatever happened to the "guns-don't-kill-people" argument?


Why, I'm not sure what happened to it, though I'm certain I didn't bring it up here. Would you like me to argue it pro or con? I can do either.

Quote:
Bombing raids traditionally follow a declaration of war.


Nobody declares war anymore; it's as passe as parachute pants. You're right about no one dragging the US before a war crimes tribunal though. It's one of the perqs of superpower status.

Quote:
if you support the US sending a drone into your backyard and blowing up anything they want by remote control, you might as well support Osama. I can't see the difference.


That's OK, I can see it for you. If you can't see the difference between Osama on the one hand and the US conducting targeted strikes at terrorists who have no compunction at blowing up civilians at random with suicide bombers on the other, nothing I say is going to change your mind.

Quote:
Still, it must be fun to have the technology to send a remote control robot anywhere you want and just blow away any old thing that walks past


I'm not sure if fun is the right word. It's certainly a lot safer than blowing things away in person.
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« Last Edit: May 12th, 2010 at 8:02pm by nanatehay »  
 
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Soren
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #6 - May 12th, 2010 at 8:30pm
 
I think it's OK to kill the enemy in a war, don't you?
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Karnal
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #7 - May 14th, 2010 at 1:28pm
 
nanatehay wrote on May 12th, 2010 at 7:49pm:
Nobody declares war anymore; it's as passe as parachute pants. You're right about no one dragging the US before a war crimes tribunal though. It's one of the perqs of superpower status.


I couldn't agree more. Declarations of war are one of those quaint olde-worlde things like the Geneva Convention.

I wonder why Osama can't afford a couple of drones himself. This way, things would be a bit more matched. He could sit at his evil terminal and take out Fort Bliss, El Paso.

The days of infantry charges and sword fights are long gone. It's sad. The days of total war are with us, particularly if you have a white sheet wrapped around your head in northern Pakistan.

War has never been about minimising civilian casualties, but now, it seems, it's about maximising them. That Wikileaks video said a lot. The clinical, distanced way we can take out a van of good Samaritans, for example, says a lot about war.

You'd think it would make people more cautious about going in, but no. We're addicted to the passive consumption of action - someone else's action, of course.
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nanatehay
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #8 - May 14th, 2010 at 2:09pm
 
Quote:
I wonder why Osama can't afford a couple of drones himself. This way, things would be a bit more matched. He could sit at his evil terminal and take out Fort Bliss, El Paso.


As I recall Osama already used up his drones, or rather, jetliners full of innocent civilians.  It was fascinating to watch afterwards, the people choosing to leap from the WTC towers rather than burn to death. Passive consumption of action? I guess so. I just wish the whole thing was over, but Bush/Cheney muffed their chances of resolving anything in Central Asia when they diverted all our resources and focus into their imbecilic invasion of Iraq. Welcome to the Forever War.
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« Last Edit: May 14th, 2010 at 2:36pm by nanatehay »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #9 - May 14th, 2010 at 4:28pm
 
nanatehay wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 2:09pm:
Quote:
I wonder why Osama can't afford a couple of drones himself. This way, things would be a bit more matched. He could sit at his evil terminal and take out Fort Bliss, El Paso.


As I recall Osama already used up his drones, or rather, jetliners full of innocent civilians.  It was fascinating to watch afterwards, the people choosing to leap from the WTC towers rather than burn to death. Passive consumption of action? I guess so. I just wish the whole thing was over, but Bush/Cheney muffed their chances of resolving anything in Central Asia when they diverted all our resources and focus into their imbecilic invasion of Iraq. Welcome to the Forever War.


You got it in one, Nanatehay. The war is with Eurasia. The war has always been with Eurasia.
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Soren
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #10 - May 14th, 2010 at 10:01pm
 
nanatehay wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 2:09pm:
 It was fascinating to watch afterwards, the people choosing to leap from the WTC towers rather than burn to death. 



The shrivelled smallness of spirit is startling.

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Soren
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #11 - May 14th, 2010 at 10:11pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 4:28pm:
nanatehay wrote on May 14th, 2010 at 2:09pm:
Quote:
I wonder why Osama can't afford a couple of drones himself. This way, things would be a bit more matched. He could sit at his evil terminal and take out Fort Bliss, El Paso.


As I recall Osama already used up his drones, or rather, jetliners full of innocent civilians.  It was fascinating to watch afterwards, the people choosing to leap from the WTC towers rather than burn to death. Passive consumption of action? I guess so. I just wish the whole thing was over, but Bush/Cheney muffed their chances of resolving anything in Central Asia when they diverted all our resources and focus into their imbecilic invasion of Iraq. Welcome to the Forever War.


You got it in one, Nanatehay. The war is with Eurasia. The war has always been with Eurasia.


Your self-preening knows no limit. The proverbial dog walking on its hind legs.

"The war has always been with Eurasia"  Jetliners=drones. Stop svcking each other's d!cks in public. It's nauseating.


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nanatehay
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #12 - May 15th, 2010 at 4:38am
 
Quote:
Stop svcking each other's d!cks in public.


Tell me Soren, do you think before you comment or do you just wipe and flush?  Regarding your displeasure at my description of people jumping from the WTC as fascinating - and it WAS fascinating, as many horrible things are -  I watched my fellow citizens die in their thousands that day in real-time, so stuff your outrage and everything you presume to know about me up your smug little ass my friend.  
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freediver
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #13 - May 15th, 2010 at 9:14am
 
The question of who is an enemy and who is a friend, and when to kill them, is not a new one for this war. Not all wars of old were about idiots forming nice neat lines and hacking each other to bits with swords.
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Soren
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Re: No-name terrorists now CIA drone targets
Reply #14 - May 15th, 2010 at 1:04pm
 
nanatehay wrote on May 15th, 2010 at 4:38am:
Quote:
Stop svcking each other's d!cks in public.


Tell me Soren, do you think before you comment or do you just wipe and flush?  Regarding your displeasure at my description of people jumping from the WTC as fascinating - and it WAS fascinating, as many horrible things are -  I watched my fellow citizens die in their thousands that day in real-time, so stuff your outrage and everything you presume to know about me up your smug little ass my friend.  

Did I claim to know anything about you? Apart from having a shrivelled spirit, that is? No. We all watched the news all day that day. Fascinating it wasn't.

Anyway, if you can be fascinated by it then I can also find you shallow on that account. You are presumptious in the extreme if you think that you deserve only approval because you happen to be their felllow citizen. Being an American does not give you a pass to be 'fascinated' by people leaping to their deaths.

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