Australian Politics Forum - Philosophy Test Online

muso

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #30 - Jun 11^th, 2010 at 1:49pm

Brave and Courageous have slightly different meanings in practice.

Brave is just the ability to operate effectively in the presence of fear. It doesn't preclude stupidity, but foolhardy is a better term in such cases.

Courageous comes from the Latin root for heart. It has some altruistic implications as well as implications of being resolute in principle, as well as having given the matter due consideration.

Brave can be more off-the-cuff. Like if you criticise your wife's haircut in public. It's brave, but not very courageous

You can be both brave and foolhardy, but courageous and foolhardy is an oxymoron.

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« Last Edit: Jun 11^th, 2010 at 1:54pm by muso »

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #31 - Jun 11^th, 2010 at 5:23pm

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brave late 15c., from M.Fr., "splendid, valiant," from It. bravo "brave, bold," originally "wild, savage," possibly from M.L. bravus "cutthroat, villain," from L. pravus "crooked, depraved;" a less likely etymology being from L. barbarus (see barbarous). A Celtic origin (Ir. breagh, Cornish bray) also has been suggested. The noun application to N. American Indian warriors is from c.1600. O.E. words for this, some with overtones of "rashness," included modig (now "moody"), beald ("bold"), cene ("keen"), dyrstig ("daring"). The verb "to face with bravery" is from 1776, from Fr. braver. Brave new world is from the title of Aldous Huxley's 1932 satirical utopian novel; he lifted the phrase from Shakespeare ("Tempest" v.i.183).

Quote:

courage c.1300, from O.Fr. corage (12c., Mod.Fr. courage) "heart, innermost feelings; temper," from V.L. *coraticum (cf. It. coraggio, Sp. coraje), from L. cor "heart," which remains a common metaphor for inner strength. In M.E., used broadly for "what is in one's mind or thoughts," hence "bravery," but also "wrath, pride, confidence, lustiness," or any sort of inclination. Replaced O.E. ellen, which also meant "zeal, strength."

Hmmm... Yeah...

Courage is from good stock... Got a good education and has a mind to quaff a fine wine with cheese, I bet... (not that its a wuss... like say, serendipity)...

Brave's got a few scumbag rellies (like cutthroat and villian)... Left school at 15 and sculls its piss like a biker on goey.

Still... Hard to say you couldn't admire the brave.... Or the courageous.

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« Last Edit: Jun 11^th, 2010 at 5:31pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Philosophy Test Online Reply #32 - Jun 11^th, 2010 at 11:01pm Quote: Still... Hard to say you couldn't admire the brave.... Or the courageous. Hard to say that you can't admire or disadmire the brave, the courageous, the questionable depending on specific cicumstances. They say that there's no such thing as a stupid question. I think you've proved that statement to be false.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #33 - Jun 12^th, 2010 at 9:10am

Amadd wrote on Jun 11^th, 2010 at 11:01pm:

Quote:

Still... Hard to say you couldn't admire the brave.... Or the courageous.

Hard to say that you can't admire or disadmire the brave, the courageous, the questionable depending on specific cicumstances.
They say that there's no such thing as a stupid question. I think you've proved that statement to be false.

Disadmire?

Can you name a circumstance where you'd correctly use the terms 'brave' or 'courageous' to define, in themselves, something you 'disadmire' (or despise) ? Can you name a circumstance where your intent is to define neutral feelings?

Even when using them in an ironic sense (such as "a courageous decision, minister") or in an oxymoronic sense (such as "brave fool"), you intend for both terms, in themselves, to define an admirable quality.

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« Last Edit: Jun 12^th, 2010 at 9:24am by NorthOfNorth »

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Soren

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #34 - Jun 12^th, 2010 at 11:28am

Brave can be both applied to a person as a defining aspect of persionality and to particular acts that can be carried out by otherwise despicable people.

A scumbag is a scumbag even if he acts bravely on occasion.

Courage (stout-hearted would be the best translation) often used interchangably with brave but in french, at least, where it comes from it is more about character than a particular act, precisely because it is about the heart. "His heart is in the right place" speaks about the same sort of way thinking about personality.

A scumbag doesn't have his heart in the right place (which is chief reason for his 'scumbaggery').

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #35 - Jun 12^th, 2010 at 11:57am

Soren wrote on Jun 12^th, 2010 at 11:28am:

A scumbag is a scumbag even if he acts bravely on occasion.

Yes, a scumbag can commit an isolated act of bravery that deviates from his character. You could say Joe is a scumbag, but he was brave to run into a burning building to save someone, yet still consider him overall a scumbag.

But in the context of defining an act he committed as brave, you would, by that, be defining it as an admirable act.

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« Last Edit: Jun 12^th, 2010 at 12:23pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Soren

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #36 - Jun 12^th, 2010 at 5:17pm

Yes, that's the sort of point I was trying to make. Brave acts, in themselves admirable, can be carried out by scumbags.
Other words/ideas apply to character (heart in the right place, derivations from courage/stout heartedness), describe acts that come from character.

I am looking to see if the distiction can be made: acts in themselves and acts as manifestations of general character.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Philosophy Test Online Reply #37 - Jun 12^th, 2010 at 6:37pm Would you agree that Joe the scumbag, while in commission of a brave act, is himself, brave and therefore admirable (albeit temporarily so) ?
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Amadd

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #38 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 1:25am

Quote:

Can you name a circumstance where you'd correctly use the terms 'brave' or 'courageous' to define, in themselves, something you 'disadmire' (or despise) ?

I thought that I already did. I'd disadmire a suicide bomber who thinks that by killing innocent people in the name of Allah, then they will be blessed with 72 virgins in the afterlife. It would take a certain amount of courage and bravery to go ahead and commit those types of acts, but it's not at all admirable from my standpoint, it's just lowering the bar of human morality.
Of course I do admire some bravery where there seems to be no rational thinking behind it depending on the circumstance.

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muso

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #39 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 7:41am

Amadd wrote on Jun 13^th, 2010 at 1:25am:

Quote:

Can you name a circumstance where you'd correctly use the terms 'brave' or 'courageous' to define, in themselves, something you 'disadmire' (or despise) ?

I thought that I already did. I'd disadmire a suicide bomber who thinks that by killing innocent people in the name of Allah, then they will be blessed with 72 virgins in the afterlife. It would take a certain amount of courage and bravery to go ahead and commit those types of acts, but it's not at all admirable from my standpoint, it's just lowering the bar of human morality.
Of course I do admire some bravery where there seems to be no rational thinking behind it depending on the circumstance.

Suicide bombers are not courageous. They are cowards.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #40 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 7:43am

Quote:

It would take a certain amount of courage and bravery to go ahead and commit those types of acts, but it's not at all admirable from my standpoint, it's just lowering the bar of human morality.

And yet it seems you’re conceding something about the act of suicide bombing.

When you say “a certain amount of courage and bravery”, how would you characterise that part of the act? Admirable? If not, what is the nature of the certain amount of courage and bravery you refer to?

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« Last Edit: Jun 13^th, 2010 at 8:12am by NorthOfNorth »

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Amadd Gold Member Offline Mo Posts: 6217	Re: Philosophy Test Online Reply #41 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 9:41am Quote: When you say “a certain amount of courage and bravery”, how would you characterise that part of the act? Admirable? If not, what is the nature of the certain amount of courage and bravery you refer to? OK, I can see what you're saying and I admire your questioning
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Philosophy Test Online
Reply #42 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 5:48pm

muso wrote on Jun 13^th, 2010 at 7:41am:

Suicide bombers are not courageous. They are cowards.

Yes, you hear that a lot regarding the act of suicide bombing, but I think its more rhetoric than an accurate definition... More an attempt to distance as far as possible, one's definition of their act from courage or bravery by using a direct antonym.

But cowardice defines a shying from risk or loss of one's life, not a headlong rush into it.

Not that I think their actions are brave or courageous.

It is not brave or courageous to kill oneself in order to cause the death of the innocent, but its not cowardice either.

I think their acts are best defined as psychotic.

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« Last Edit: Jun 13^th, 2010 at 6:07pm by NorthOfNorth »

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Soren Gold Member Offline Posts: 25654 Gender:	Re: Philosophy Test Online Reply #43 - Jun 13^th, 2010 at 9:46pm It is not possible to be a brave suicide bomber for a despicable cause. 'Bravery' for a bad cause is not bravery, it is foolhardiness.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Philosophy Test Online Reply #44 - Jun 14^th, 2010 at 7:15am Maybe stronger definitions are required for suicide bombing, such as malignant or, using a religious term, Satanic. It's on par with the father who murders his children then kills himself.
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