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The Population Debate (Read 181977 times)
mellie
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #135 - Aug 13th, 2010 at 2:37pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 13th, 2010 at 1:55pm:
mellie wrote on Aug 13th, 2010 at 12:50pm:
Now about this population debate, there is no debate, it's either sustain or extinct.



Alas, poor Yorick (Mellie), were it that easy, to convince both the silent majority (swinging voters) & the vocal minority (Pollies & big business), that action is not only merited, but that the urgency mounts daily!

It is with regret, that I say I know the beast I call “Exponential Growth” and it is not easy to pin down, let alone cease its abhorrent grin!


 



Assume a gazebo, if you have it not.


And the missing word is.....(6)




....Look, don't start me off pal...  I have Shakespeares complete works, (hardcover) and I'm not afraid to use it.

Wink I'll give you poor Yorick mellie hehehehe

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mellie
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #136 - Aug 13th, 2010 at 2:48pm
 
Yes, and as the urgency mounts daily...Rudds quote rings near...

"I actually believe in a big Australia I make no apology for that. I actually think it's good news that our population is growing,"

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Happy
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #137 - Aug 13th, 2010 at 4:09pm
 
Rudd's gone aside a bit, his big thing's gone too.

Glad somebody like Dick brought it up and 1/4 acre could come back if we could reduce the numbers.

Constant growth is not possible as it is exponential and we like it or not it will one day collapse, so better to control it.
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hawil
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A Pyramid of Ponzi schemes
Reply #138 - Aug 13th, 2010 at 5:33pm
 
In all debates on population and aging population, one factor is never mentioned. The GNP is produced with ever decreasing effort and the only problem is the distribution of the GNP.
In 1960 it would take some 20 wharf labourers to load a ship with 15,000 tonnes of wheat, in 1961 a mechanical loader was installed on the same wharf and that amount of wheat was loaded by two or three man operating the equippment in 48 hours.
Almost the same cost savings was achieved on the farms and on transport to the port.
This happened in many other industries, but most of the savings have been usurped by the providers of capital.
The article by Terry McCrann was the most sensible that I ever read from him, and I read many, but he must really mellowing in his old age.
Another thing that the population debate needs, is some straight talking; some countries should be told, you cannot go on breeding like rabbits, and others, that they are not entitled to consume, or waste most of the goods produced in sweatshops, but for that, we need some honest politicians and leaders.
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Re: A Pyramid of Ponzi schemes
Reply #139 - Aug 13th, 2010 at 6:27pm
 
hawil wrote on Aug 13th, 2010 at 5:33pm:
In all debates on population and aging population, one factor is never mentioned. The GNP is produced with ever decreasing effort and the only problem is the distribution of the GNP.
In 1960 it would take some 20 wharf labourers to load a ship with 15,000 tonnes of wheat, in 1961 a mechanical loader was installed on the same wharf and that amount of wheat was loaded by two or three man operating the equippment in 48 hours.
Almost the same cost savings was achieved on the farms and on transport to the port.
This happened in many other industries, but most of the savings have been usurped by the providers of capital.
The article by Terry McCrann was the most sensible that I ever read from him, and I read many, but he must really mellowing in his old age.
Another thing that the population debate needs, is some straight talking; some countries should be told, you cannot go on breeding like rabbits, and others, that they are not entitled to consume, or waste most of the goods produced in sweatshops, but for that, we need some honest politicians and leaders.


You may be interested in the following chart, from Steve Keen's website -

...

You may also be interested in the following chart, which will be a forerunner of charts to follow, which will show substantial increases in Energy expenditure to GDP, which will require further massive changes in Technology, just to stand still.

...

As for Leaders & Politicians, good luck and can I suggest you do not look for any real leaders amongst the Pollies, I waould hate to see you waste your valuable time!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #140 - Aug 14th, 2010 at 11:50am
 
Will Baby Boomers Hurt Equity Valuations for the Next 20 years?


A recent Barclays study suggests demographics and baby boomers may keep equity valuations down for another 20 years.

The Barclays Equity Gilts Studypublished in the Financial Times on Feb. 10, 2010 suggests these bubbles were driven by shifts in the demand for equities and other assets and these, in turn, were driven largely by demographics.

Equities only became mass-market savings vehicles in the 1950s, as investment management companies started marketing their services.  This process accelerated sharply in the early 1980s, which is exactly when baby boomers began entering their ages of peak productivity and savings.

The introduction of 401K pension plans in the U.S. further incentivized individuals to start playing in stock markets.  As of 1980 the world had survived without a true bubble since the Great Crash of 1929.  Economic growth continued to be unusually stable until 2000 and the bubbles of the past decade.

As baby boomers aged and the long bull market made them more confident, they ‘over-invested’ in assets around the world. The process was already apparent when Alan Greenspan made his famous speech about the risks of “irrational exuberance” in 1996, and become obvious with the Asia crisis of the following year, and then the great Internet bubble that finally burst in 2000.  

Barclays compared cyclical price/earnings ratios on stocks since 1950 with the ratio of 35-54 year-olds in the population.  Stock valuations became most extended just as baby boomers were saving and producing most.

The Barclays study suggests boomers were a major force in creating the later credit crisis. Mistakes both in U.S. monetary policy and in regulating mortgage lending were serious contributory factors to the credit crisis.  

However, the study contends that underlying demographic factors were a more potent underlying force.
 Baby boomers, faced with the crash in equities and with their retirements imminent, they would only have been expected to put money into bonds and other debt products, thereby helping to push interest rates.  That’s exactly what boomers did.

This drove a strong acceleration in the global appetite to put savings into debt financial instruments, which is the same thing as a surge in the global appetite to lend.

The implications here for the future are not good.  The proportion of 35-54 year-olds in society will keep declining for another decade, while the growth in the retired population will be very sharp.

This means equity valuations should keep coming down.  The demographic shift that drove the equity bull market for 20 years can be expected to drive a bear market for another 20 years.  This would suggest that this bear market has another 10 years to run.

Link -
http://stocksonwallstreet.net/featured/will-baby-boomers-hurt-equity-valuations-...
=========
This Barclays study does suggest a linkage between Demographic shifts & share markets, Demographics also has far reaching implications for the general Global Economy, which in turn affects the financial & equity markets!

Whilst this study talks of the 35-54 year old spread, I prefer to use the breakdown of 45-55, being the Peak Earning & Spending years, which is then followed by the 55+ era, which is more related to saving for retirement and a consequent decline in Consumer Spending!

Given the Peak Spending period is 45-55, I take 50 as the average to then guage the rise & fall of Economic activity and therefore overall share prices.
If we take the early 80's, the mid 90's and 2006, then cast back 50 years, you will see the correlation of the 50 years, to the absolute start of the Baby Boom in the early 30's, the real Boomer explosion started in 1946 and the Peak of the Baby Boom was in 1956.

Of course, there will always be issues external to demographics, which will influence events, such as the first Oil Crisis in 1973 and the 9/11 attack in 2001.

I should stress that Demographics are not the only issue that have, are & will continue to influence events.

Certainly, Energy, in all its forms has a very significant impact and the Peaking of Global Oil in 2005 has enormous ramifications, as will the upcoming declines in the supply of Gas & Coal, within the next 30-40 years!

That said, it does seem that the Barclays study focus may have been too narrow, given the likely effects of Energy decline, Climate Change and an actual decline in total Global population (in 20-30 years), it would appear logical that the "Bear Market" could be considerably longer than another 10 years!

To those who would say, we just need another Baby Boom?

I'm sorry, our capacity as a country and a planet to sustain a greater population, simply isn't there. We are now running headlong into an Energy crisis of monumental proportions & our other Essential resources including Water & Food will also come under increasing stresses.

In short, we are between a rock & a hard place, there are no easy choices, but we will need to decide between a better now and of robbing future generations of their rights, their financial welfare & perhaps their very existence?

The next 20 years will be very different to the last 20 years, choose wisely!
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« Last Edit: Aug 14th, 2010 at 12:03pm by perceptions_now »  
 
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hawil
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #141 - Aug 15th, 2010 at 2:16pm
 
As for Leaders & Politicians, good luck and can I suggest you do not look for any real leaders amongst the Pollies, I waould hate to see you waste your valuable time!


If you are right, why do we pay politicians; the cost of the current and ex-politicians has never been written much about, it would be massive.
As far as the capitalists and bankers on the graph are concerned, they
would come under the same category.
Wasting my valuable time: are we all not doing it?
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« Last Edit: May 28th, 2011 at 10:09pm by hawil »  
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #142 - Aug 15th, 2010 at 8:40pm
 
hawil wrote on Aug 15th, 2010 at 2:16pm:
As for Leaders & Politicians, good luck and can I suggest you do not look for any real leaders amongst the Pollies, I waould hate to see you waste your valuable time!


If you are right, why do we pay politicians; the cost of the current and ex-politicians has never been written mus=ch about, it would be massive.
As far as the capitalists and bankers on the graph are concerned, theyw ould come under the same category.
Wasting my valuable time: are we all not doing it?


Yes, it would seem to be that we are all suffering from the same mass hysteria & hallucinations!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #143 - Aug 16th, 2010 at 10:30pm
 
Hans Rosling on global population growth


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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #144 - Aug 16th, 2010 at 10:35pm
 
Taiwan population to reach zero growth 4 years early


TAIPEI (Taiwan News) – Taiwan’s population will reach zero growth in 2022, four years earlier than previously thought, the Cabinet-level Council for Economic Planning and Development said Monday.
Due to a sharply falling birth rate, the country’s population will begin to fall from the following year, reports said.

The CEPD studies new projections for Taiwan’s population growth once every two years using figures from the Ministry of Interior and the Directorate-General of Budget, Accounting and Statistics. The latest estimates for the period 2010-2060 were the subject of a CEPD meeting Monday afternoon, the Chinese-language United Evening News reported.

The previous estimates, released in August 2008, predicted zero growth in 2026, but since then the birth rate recorded an even sharper decline, the paper said.

The CEPD report took a range of elements into account, including birth and death rate, the graying of the population and migration, to reach its conclusion. The speeding up of the zero-growth phenomenon came despite the migration to Taiwan of numerous brides from Southeast Asia and the liberalization of restrictions on people moving in from China.

Officials warned that the advent of zero growth would bring serious social consequences, the evening paper said. A larger number of elderly people as a proportion of the total population would make it harder for businesses to find employees, and might force them to move overseas, seriously damaging the country’s competitiveness, officials said.

The CEPD was likely to discuss measures to encourage births and eventual changes to immigration policies.

If trends predicted by the CEPD persisted, around 2027 every two working citizens would have to support one non-working citizen, the paper said. At present, there was still no cause for alarm because the working population was still growing in number, according to officials.
Link-
http://www.etaiwannews.com/etn/news_content.php?id=1348346&lang=eng_news&cate_im...
=============
Most of the rest of the world will also be at ZPG, by 2040!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #145 - Aug 17th, 2010 at 11:53pm
 
Sixty Percent Of Baby Boomers Don't Have Enough For Retirement


Nearly three in five baby boomers face a financial bust in retirement if the current economic climate persists, according to a study cited in a recent article by the Wall Street Journal.

"Early" baby boomers, aged 56 to 62, have a 47 percent chance of not having enough money to pay basic retirement costs, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute. "Late" boomers, aged 46 to 55, as well as workers currently aged 29 to 45, have about a 45 percent chance of running short, the study noted.

Baby boomers, who make up around 78 million or 25 percent of the total spenders in the U.S., are among the Americans who have had their nest eggs slashed by 18 percent or an average of $171,000 per person since the end of 2007, according to the WSJ.

A study released earlier this month by the Century Foundation showed that declining housing values, weak investment markets and scarce opportunities for employment will all force baby boomers to tighten their belts in their old age. "In 2008 alone, housing prices dropped an average of 33 percent, greatly depleting the wealth of the majority of baby boomers, who have relatively little savings beyond what they have invested in their home. Concurrently, the 40 percent drop in equity markets in 2008 had a devastating affect on higher net worth baby boomers, for whom stock ownership is the predominant form of wealth," the report noted.

The cutbacks would put an additional drag on retirees' already weak consumer spending -- people aged 65 to 74 spent 12.3 percent less in 2008 than they did ten years earlier, says the WSJ. In 2007, the consulting firm McKinsey estimated that baby boomers control nearly 40 percent of U.S. consumer spending.

Link -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/60-percent-of-baby-boomer_n_683191.html
============
Where goes the USA Economy, goes the rest of the world.

It is not correct that the rest of the world, nor emerging economies, nor China, has de-coupled from the USA.

We are all now more interlocked than at any other time in history!


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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #146 - Aug 18th, 2010 at 3:22pm
 
Population and Density


It shouldn't surprise anyone that Japan is not growing like gangbusters. Demographically speaking, it's not a young country anymore. This is one reason why Japanese stocks have never fully recovered from the 1989 crash and another reason why Japan's public-debt-to-GDP ratio has been sustainably high. Japanese savers have been content to fund domestic government deficits because they prefer the safety of bonds to taking risks in the stock market.

As you can see from the population pyramid of Japan (see charts below) it's relatively top-heavy. That means Japan has a large percentage of its population at or near retirement age. To the extent that "demographics is destiny' - demographic trends drive consumer spending and corporate earnings and/or indicate the coming strain on government financiers - Japan doesn't look like much of a growth stock.

And now - why'll we're anticipating and preparing for the next great U.S. dollar crisis - we'll pause in our regular reckoning to look at a few of the population pyramids that struck our fancy. The question, posed by a long-suffering reader, is whether Australia faces a lot of long-term negatives because it shares the same demographic profile as Japan or the nation's of Western Europe. Before we answer that, let's look at the population pyramids we selected from here. As a reminder, they show you the distribution of the population in terms of age.

...

...

...

...

What have we learned?

Japan and Italy have ageing populations. Through either low immigration or low birth rates, or a combination of both, ageing countries face some grim demographic math. Pension (private and public) pensions are likely to increase even as the tax base shrinks. Taxes go up on younger people. But government borrowing probably increases too, unless benefits get cut. If the borrowing is not from domestic savings (where it would then NOT go to private enterprise) it must be done on global markets at whatever the market price for money is.

Iran is very young, but ruled by theocratic old men. Hmmn.

The U.S. has a squarish figure. But the pyramid does not reveal that for most American workers, real wages have gone nowhere since 1974. The boomers might be able to retire by liquidating their share market and housing wealth. But who are they going to sell to? The government?

Australia looks surprisingly curvy, which reveals something demographically unusual. Australia's GenX generation is actually larger than its Baby Boomer generation. Hmmn.

The Boomer in both parties are promising the sky to themselves and Gen Y and the Millennials. Who's going to pay for it? The Xers that run small businesses and are in the prime of their wage earning years. Give them they yoke. There are future fields to plough!

It will be interesting to see how the votes breakdown over the weekend. As an Xer, but not an Australian citizen, your editor remembers recessions and his first job (as a 12-year old bus boy in a restaurant owned by a friend's dad). We generally reject most stereotypes. But we do find most Xers to be suspicious of or at least not expect a lot of government. However, government may be expecting a lot of all of us!

What can you take away from Australia's demographic chart? Given that there is no immediate funding crisis for social welfare, it's going to be pretty easy to convince Aussie investors to invest in government bonds as an alternative to shares. It might even be mandated that popular investment vehicles are required to own "safe" government bonds and thus, directly fund deficit spending for years to come.
Link -
http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/population-and-destiny/2010/08/17/
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When considering the impact of Older/Aging Demographics, it would be appropriate to remember -
1) An Older/Aging Dempgraphic will spend less & save more, under normal circumstances, therefore Demand would normally decline.
However, these are not normal times, as a large chunk of what Global Boomers were relying on for their retirement years, were in Housing &/or Shares and both of those areas have had &/or will have considerable falls in value, thus placing many Boomers in very difficult circumstances.
2) Dempgraphically, the 45-55 years are the Peak Earning & Spending years, whilst the +55 group is where saving for retirement commences in earnest and therefore Demand will start to be impacted a full 10 years prior to a 65 year olds retirement.  
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #147 - Aug 18th, 2010 at 10:11pm
 
Korea's population to decline from 2018


Korea’s population is projected to peak in 2017 and then decline the following year as women are having fewer children, raising concerns that the low birthrate and the rapidly aging population will weaken economic viability.

The nation has and will continue to become an increasingly multiracial, multicultural society, with more foreign women coming here, mostly from China and Southeast Asian countries, to marry Korean men.

Additionally, Asia’s fourth largest economy is the only country among the 32 OECD members to grapple with a rising suicide rate, with one individual taking his or her own life every 40 minutes. Particularly, a growing number of senior citizens are committing suicide, largely due to financial difficulties after retirement.

Korea’s birthrate has remained one of the world’s lowest levels over the past 10 years as more Korean men and women became reluctant to tie the knot and have babies.

The birthrate, or the average number of babies expected per woman aged 15-49, hit an all-time low of 1.08 in 2005 but rebounded to 1.25 in 2007 and 1.19 in 2008. The annual average birthrate is projected to stand at 1.13 from 2005 through 2010, lower than the OECD average of 1.64.

With more senior citizens and fewer babies here, workers aged 15-64 will have to support more elderly. Currently, every five Korean workers provide for one senior citizen.
But by 2050, one employee will have to look after one senior citizen
.

Link -
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2010/08/113_71628.html
========
One Worker for one Retiree?
If so, then Sth Korea has a REAL DRAMA!
And, by the look of the suicide rate, perhaps the Sth Koreans know it?
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #148 - Aug 23rd, 2010 at 11:33am
 
Can Europe Survive Its Population Plunge?


Europe is dying. The Washington Post, among others, reports that, within a hundred years, there will be the rare German in Germany or Italian in Italy. Some demographers believe it is too late to correct Europe's plunge into extinction. "The fall in the population can no longer be stopped," reported Walter Rademacher of the German Federal Statistics Office.

Replacement fertility rates are 2.1 children per woman in developed nations. No nation in Europe can claim that rate, and most fall under 1.6. At those levels, each generation is barely half the number of the preceding one. The working-age population is reduced by 30 percent in just 20 years, having a devastating impact on economies. Today, European Union and United Nations experts are sufficiently alarmed to call councils to address the population crisis. The irony is that this is a crisis of their making.

In the 1960s, futurists painted a dire picture of population explosion and its concomitant depletion of resources. As recently as ten years ago, the UN's own Millennium Summit Declaration insisted, "We must spare no effort to free all of humanity, and above all our children and grandchildren from the threat of living on a planet irredeemably spoilt by human activities, and whose resources would no longer be sufficient for their needs".
Link -
http://www.insidecatholic.com/feature/can-europe-survive-its-population-plunge.h...
==========
The real irony is that there are ironies, within ironies and that the crisis is not in the making, the demographic crisis has already started!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #149 - Aug 23rd, 2010 at 11:56am
 
The World Won't Be Aging Gracefully. Just the Opposite.


The world is in crisis. A financial crash and a deepening recession are afflicting rich and poor countries alike.

A bipartisan congressional panel announced last month that the odds of a nuclear or biological terrorist attack somewhere in the world by the year 2014 are better than 50-50. It looks as though we'll be grappling with these economic and geopolitical challenges well into the 2010s.

But if you think that things couldn't get any worse, wait till the 2020s. The economic and geopolitical climate could become even more threatening by then -- and this time the reason will be demographics.

By the 2020s, an ominous new conjuncture of these trends will once again threaten massive disruption. We're talking about global aging, which is likely to have a profound effect on economic growth, living standards and the shape of the world order.

For the world's wealthy nations, the 2020s are set to be a decade of hyperaging and population decline. Many countries will experience fiscal crisis, economic stagnation and ugly political battles over entitlements and immigration.

Meanwhile, poor countries will be buffeted by their own demographic storms. Some will be overwhelmed by massive age waves that they can't afford, while others will be whipsawed by new explosions of youth whose aspirations they cannot satisfy.

The rich countries have been aging for decades, due to falling birthrates and rising life spans. But in the 2020s, this aging will get an extra kick as large postwar baby boom generations move into retirement. According to the United Nations Population Division (whose projections are cited throughout this article), the median ages of Western Europe and Japan, which were 34 and 33 respectively as recently as 1980, will soar to 47 and 52, assuming no miraculous change in fertility. In Italy, Spain and Japan, more than half of all adults will be older than the official retirement age -- and there will be more people in their 70s than in their 20s.

Graying means paying -- more for pensions, more for health care, more for nursing homes for the frail elderly. Yet the old-age benefit systems of most developed countries are already pushing the limits of fiscal and economic affordability. By the 2020s, political warfare over brutal benefit cuts seems unavoidable.

Aging is, well, old. But depopulation -- the delayed result of falling birthrates -- is new. The working-age population has already begun to decline in several large developed countries, including Germany and Japan.

By 2030, it will be declining in nearly all of them, and in a growing number, total population will be in steep decline as well. The arithmetic is simple: When the average couple has only 1.3 children (in Spain) or 1.7 children (in Britain), depopulation is inevitable, unless there's massive immigration.

The economics of depopulation are grim. Even at full employment, real gross domestic product may decline, because the number of workers will be falling faster than productivity is rising. With the size of markets fixed or shrinking, businesses and governments may try to lock in their positions through cartels and protectionist policies, ushering in a zero-growth psychology not seen since the 1930s.

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