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The Population Debate (Read 181973 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #150 - Aug 23rd, 2010 at 12:32pm
 
The World Won't Be Aging Gracefully. Just the Opposite (Cont)


America certainly faces some serious structural challenges, including an engorged health-care sector and a chronically low savings rate that may become handicaps as we age. But unlike Europe and Japan, we will still have the youth and fiscal resources to afford a major geopolitical role.

Consider China, which may be the first country to grow old before it grows rich.
China's coming age wave -- by 2030 it will be an older country than the United States -- may weaken the two pillars of the current regime's legitimacy: rapidly rising GDP and social stability. Imagine workforce growth slowing to zero while tens of millions of elders sink into indigence without pensions, without health care and without children to support them. China could careen toward social collapse -- or, in reaction, toward an authoritarian clampdown.

Russia, along with the rest of Eastern Europe, is likely to experience the fastest extended population decline since the plague-ridden Middle Ages. Amid a widening health crisis, the Russian fertility rate has plunged and life expectancy has collapsed. Russian men today can expect to live to 59, 16 years less than American men and marginally less than their Red Army grandfathers at the end of World War II.

All told, population trends point inexorably toward a more dominant U.S. role in a world that will need us more, not less.

Abraham Lincoln once called this country "the world's last best hope." Demography suggests that this will remain true for some time to come.
Link -
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/02/AR2009010202231....
==========
Whilst this article, from January 2009, makes a number of good points, it is also incorrect in some areas.

For starters, the current GFC IS actually partially attributable the leading edge of the Boomer retirement phenomenon.

Why? Well, because although the first of the "official Boomers" don't start retiring until January 1st, 2011, the actual start of that Baby Boom has its origins in the Great Depression of the early 1930's and because retirement doesn't start on the day of retirement, it starts a good 10 years earlier, by changes in spending & savings habits!

The article also ignores the real world, which is now starting to see the effects of a Post Peak Oil world, with Oil production having effectively Peaked around 2005. I also ignores the reality of Climate Changes and what that will mean in the short, medium & longer term, to both Demographics & the Global Economy!

It is true that Aging has always been a human condition, but never before to this extent, in just ONE GENERATION. We have also had instances of Depopulation (Population Decline), but never before on such a Global basis, with the numbers anywhere near these massive levels!

So, Yes the Economics are grim, but the alternative is even more grim!

We either face the issues now or try to delay the day of reckoning again, with yet another Baby Boom &/or by imposing massive levels of immigration, which also has some inherent problems.

This would simply exacerbate our problems, by forcing Essential Resources, such as Oil, Coal, Gas, fresh water & Food production, into a faster decline and leave humanity more exposed to a "die off" or "Extinction Event", directly by our own hands or indirectly via Climate Change!

The time has come, for us (Humans) to pay the piper, change our ways, change the system and get back into balance!

Either that or our tenure will be limited and we may be dismissed, without further notice!
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« Last Edit: Aug 23rd, 2010 at 12:46pm by perceptions_now »  
 
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Intraday Tips
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #151 - Aug 23rd, 2010 at 8:14pm
 
Japan will have a heavy burden of increasing old ages in the near future, because the attitude toward the number of children among Japanese women is to have fewer children (but not to have no children) and because it is anticipated that this attitude will not last for a good number of years in the future. This is one of issues discussed in recent Japan as population problems in the ldquoAging Societyrdquo.
Another issue is population problems in the ldquoHigh Density Societyrdquo. This issue is discussed in relation to unbalanced land utilization, air and water pollution, destruction of village life etc., brought about by the over-congestion in the metropolitan areas areas and depopulation in rural areas.
One of the aims involved in the regional development plan of Japan is to solve the problems occured by the uneven distribution of population. The Third Comprehensive National Development Plan published in 1977 states that the central aim of this plan is to undertake the reorganization of population distribution by the development of attractive local cities, towns and villages where enough educational and employment opportunities are provided to make a best use of the desirable characteristics of the region, maintaining the present profitable feature of the areas and comfortable living conditions for people.




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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #152 - Aug 23rd, 2010 at 9:50pm
 
Intraday Tips wrote on Aug 23rd, 2010 at 8:14pm:
Japan will have a heavy burden of increasing old ages in the near future, because the attitude toward the number of children among Japanese women is to have fewer children (but not to have no children) and because it is anticipated that this attitude will not last for a good number of years in the future. This is one of issues discussed in recent Japan as population problems in the ldquoAging Societyrdquo.
Another issue is population problems in the ldquoHigh Density Societyrdquo. This issue is discussed in relation to unbalanced land utilization, air and water pollution, destruction of village life etc., brought about by the over-congestion in the metropolitan areas areas and depopulation in rural areas.
One of the aims involved in the regional development plan of Japan is to solve the problems occured by the uneven distribution of population. The Third Comprehensive National Development Plan published in 1977 states that the central aim of this plan is to undertake the reorganization of population distribution by the development of attractive local cities, towns and villages where enough educational and employment opportunities are provided to make a best use of the desirable characteristics of the region, maintaining the present profitable feature of the areas and comfortable living conditions for people.


Intraday,
Welcome to OzPolitic in general & to the Finance & Economics section, in particular!

I note that you see Japan as having some upcoming difficulties, how do you see the future Japanese share market in particular and the Global (inc. Australian) share markets, in general?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #153 - Aug 25th, 2010 at 1:49pm
 
Sixty Percent Of Baby Boomers Don't Have Enough For Retirement


Nearly three in five baby boomers face a financial bust in retirement if the current economic climate persists, according to a study cited in a recent article by the Wall Street Journal.

"Early" baby boomers, aged 56 to 62, have a 47 percent chance of not having enough money to pay basic retirement costs, according to the Employee Benefit Research Institute. "Late" boomers, aged 46 to 55, as well as workers currently aged 29 to 45, have about a 45 percent chance of running short, the study noted.

Baby boomers, who make up around 78 million or 25 percent of the total spenders in the U.S., are among the Americans who have had their nest eggs slashed by 18 percent or an average of $171,000 per person since the end of 2007, according to the WSJ.

A study released earlier this month by the Century Foundation showed that declining housing values, weak investment markets and scarce opportunities for employment will all force baby boomers to tighten their belts in their old age. Century's study says:


"In 2008 alone, housing prices dropped an average of 33 percent, greatly depleting the wealth of the majority of baby boomers, who have relatively little savings beyond what they have invested in their home. Concurrently, the 40 percent drop in equity markets in 2008 had a devastating affect on higher net worth baby boomers, for whom stock ownership is the predominant form of wealth."

Boomers' cutbacks would put an additional drag on retirees' already weak consumer spending -- people aged 65 to 74 spent 12.3 percent less in 2008 than they did ten years earlier, says the WSJ.

In 2007, the consulting firm McKinsey estimated that baby boomers control nearly 40 percent of U.S. consumer spending.
Link -
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/16/60-percent-of-baby-boomer_n_683191.html
=========
Boomers will take another massive hit before the end of this year, as sahres take another fall, exacerbating an already difficult situation!
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Happy
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #154 - Aug 25th, 2010 at 3:18pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 1:49pm:
Sixty Percent Of Baby Boomers Don't Have Enough For Retirement




Partially model of new workers supporting retirees is to blame for.
I consecutive Governments put away some money away for every alive person we would not have such problem.

Wasteful management and temporary nature of Government (3 years between elections) make politicians do what they did.

Sure, if we don’t stop growth of population at some stage we will end up with the option of inescapable cannibalism in order to survive.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #155 - Aug 25th, 2010 at 4:54pm
 
Happy wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 3:18pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 25th, 2010 at 1:49pm:
Sixty Percent Of Baby Boomers Don't Have Enough For Retirement




Partially model of new workers supporting retirees is to blame for.
I consecutive Governments put away some money away for every alive person we would not have such problem.

Wasteful management and temporary nature of Government (3 years between elections) make politicians do what they did.

Sure, if we don’t stop growth of population at some stage we will end up with the option of inescapable cannibalism in order to survive.


I agree that Politicians span of attention & plans for the future are limited, by the very nature of their short term in office, which on average is quite a bit shorter than their stated 3 year term.

It should be rolled out to a fixed 4 year term for everybody, including lower & upper houses, all state governmentsand they should go to the polls on the same fixed day, to save the money that is currently wasted on separate elections.

To offest that, I would prefer to see "Publicly funded Elections" and the banning of all "Political donations, from non-normal people (ie. Businesses & unions) & any donation over $1,000.

In terms of retirements, the current political system has prompted Politicians to put today ahead of tomorrow, when it comes to buying votes today, versus allowing for proper funding of the future Baby Boomer retirees.

Now, all of a sudden, it is no longer tomorrow, but today & the correct allocations have not been made, by many governments, over many years!
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #156 - Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:16pm
 
Shrinking global child population


Key points
•The total number of children globally aged 0-14 shrank in the decade from 2000-2010, dropping by an average annual of 0.1%.  
•Longer-term, a shrinking child population will feed through to smaller numbers of working-age people, which will make it more difficult for governments and companies to support retired consumers. The number of 65+ year-olds rose by an annual average 2.5% from 2000 and 2010 to account for 7.9% of the total population globally.

...

Global and regional trends
•The fertility rate required for natural population replacement is 2.1, meaning that the global average is still higher than this level. However, in 2010 in Japan, which has the world's oldest population, fertility rates were 1.3 children per woman;
•79.5% of the world's children aged 0-14 are located in Asia Pacific or the Middle East and Africa region in 2010, where countries tend to have the highest child population growth rates. Even here there was a sharp fall in fertility rates between 2000 and 2010, from 2.9 to 2.5 in Asia Pacific and in the Middle East and Africa region from 5.3 to 4.6;

•Many Eastern European countries have amongst the most rapidly declining child populations in the world. Between 2000 and 2010 the number of 0-14 year-olds fell by an annual average of 4.8% in Moldova and by 3.6% in Lithuania.  
•The Middle East and Africa are seeing the most rapid increases in those aged 0-14. For instance growth in Qatar and Bahrain was 6.6% and 6.4% respectively on average per year over 2000-2010, although the small size of these countries makes them special cases. Many African countries had very high child population growth in the same period, especially Niger (4.0% per year), Sierra Leone (3.6% annually);

•In China the child population fell by 3.0% on average annually over the decade, largely thanks to the one-child per family policy, introduced in the 1970s, which has aimed to limit overall population growth.

...

Government policies
Many governments are implementing policies on child population:

•In some countries, governments are actively seeking to reduce birth rates to avoid pressure on resources. The most obvious example of this is China, the most populated country in the world, whose “one child per family” policy was introduced in the 1970s and has reduced birth rates from 18.2 per 1,000 people in 1980 to 11.8 in 2010, and the proportion of 0-14 year olds from 35.5% of the population to 16.3% over the same period;

•Other countries with high child population growth, for example in sub-Saharan Africa also have campaigns to reduce birth rates, for instance by promoting the use of contraception and encouraging women to stay in education;

•Many developed nations with declining child populations are attempting to encourage higher birth rates. For example, Australia offers a cash payment and other social security incentives for every child born, while European countries including France and Italy offer incentives for couples that have children. These efforts are aimed at offsetting a declining population;

•The impact of the 2008-2009 global economic recession may discourage couples from having children, at a time of economic and employment uncertainty, whilst reductions in child benefits in some countries such as Spain or Greece may also restrict birth rates. In parallel, many governments in the developed world are seeking to raise retirement rates in order to keep people in the labour force, to reduce pension deficits. The old-age dependency ratio (the proportion of 65+ year-olds to the total population) was 12.0% worldwide in 2010 but much higher in countries such as Japan (36.2%) and Germany (31.2%).
Link -
http://blog.euromonitor.com/2010/08/shrinking-global-child-population.html
============
Whilst the Aging process has already increased from 1980 to 2010, the rate of that increase is set to rise dramatically between now & 2050, with the over 65 year old group estimated to increase by between 50 to 100%.

This will dramatically affect many areas of the economy, including & resulting in -
1) Demand in many areas, including housing, as retirees spend less.
2) Pension obligations of government will increase.
3) Health Services Demand & Costs, will increase.
4) The Employment/Total Population participation rate, will decline, which will mean fewer workers supporting more Non-workers.

The above & much more, will result in lower government revenue, higher Business & Personal Taxes, but also a higher government Revenue to income gap, which means increasing Deficits & Debts, "just as we thought they couldn't go any higher?".
 
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Sappho
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #157 - Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:35pm
 
I've given this population explosion a lot of thought and have decided that it is unsolvable.

1. As pointed out earlier, govt. is not in power long enough to tackle the issue.
2. You cannot control a persons right to procreate.
3. The poorer the nation, the greater the population, as people have more children to insure themselves against the death of some.
4. Decreasing populations in affluent nations has the effect of decreasing demand, which runs contrary to the will of Capitalist who are all about growing profits. Although i concede that Capitalists could counter this by increasing the standard of living in poorer nations, but not whilst the accumulation of wealth is better sort from the affluent as is the case now.
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"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."
 
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #158 - Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 12:35pm:
I've given this population explosion a lot of thought and have decided that it is unsolvable.

1. As pointed out earlier, govt. is not in power long enough to tackle the issue.
2. You cannot control a persons right to procreate.
3. The poorer the nation, the greater the population, as people have more children to insure themselves against the death of some.
4. Decreasing populations in affluent nations has the effect of decreasing demand, which runs contrary to the will of Capitalist who are all about growing profits. Although i concede that Capitalists could counter this by increasing the standard of living in poorer nations, but not whilst the accumulation of wealth is better sort from the affluent as is the case now.  


Well, it certainly does present, as a Gordian Knot, I think we can agree there is little that now presents as an easy or at least easier option!

Of course, as I have said in other posts, it would have made life much easier if change had of started some 50-60 years ago!

That said -
1) I agree governments need a longer horizon to look at this and other problems and to take the actions needed. However, the whole Political & Economic landscape also needs to change, before anything else will actually do any good.

2) Yes, you can, look at China.

3) Regrettably, those poorer nations may pay a higher price, than others, as events move on.

4) That is a large part of the problems, Exponential Growth of any sort, in a finite environment, will automatically & always lead to great difficulties, when nearing the end.
Capitalists & Capitalism can look forward to some changes, not all to their liking, but I'm equally sure that there will be few that will like or want some of the changes that must come, if we are to see out this century?
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Sappho
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #159 - Aug 29th, 2010 at 11:38pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
2) Yes, you can, look at China.


The 'One Child Policy'. You think you have a right to impose that upon affluent nations do you, when we are not the ones causing the population explosion? You think you have the right to deny a child aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters, cousins... whilst poorer nations that are the root cause of over population, can still enjoy the extended family? You think it is fair that these solitary souls who have but a mother and father, perhaps grandparents should suck it up and save their moaning whilst refugees from over populated war torn nations work at bringing out their extended family... and rub that in the nose of the solitary soul?

Africa, India, Asia, South America... these are where you need to focus your population reduction strategies. White people are a minority caste... a minority shrinking, if the stats have anything to say, that you seem to want to make into a fringe existence and without relatives.

Wow... great thinking there.
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Sappho
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #160 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:03am
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
Capitalists & Capitalism can look forward to some changes, not all to their liking, but I'm equally sure that there will be few that will like or want some of the changes that must come, if we are to see out this century?


Capitalists have a role to play in population reduction you know. They can assist in making poorer, over populated nations more affluent and therefore less inclined towards many children because the few created have a greater chance of survival.

You sound like one of those Socialist Dictators of the last century... Way behind the times comrade.  Angry
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Sappho
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #161 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:10am
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
3) Regrettably, those poorer nations may pay a higher price, than others, as events move on.


Suffer the coloured peoples of this world. 'Tis regrettable... but... what choice is there?

Dude... that's friggen racist and amoral.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #162 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:15am
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 11:38pm:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
2) Yes, you can, look at China.


The 'One Child Policy'. You think you have a right to impose that upon affluent nations do you, when we are not the ones causing the population explosion? You think you have the right to deny a child aunts, uncles, brothers and sisters, cousins... whilst poorer nations that are the root cause of over population, can still enjoy the extended family? You think it is fair that these solitary souls who have but a mother and father, perhaps grandparents should suck it up and save their moaning whilst refugees from over populated war torn nations work at bringing out their extended family... and rub that in the nose of the solitary soul?

Africa, India, Asia, South America... these are where you need to focus your population reduction strategies. White people are a minority caste... a minority shrinking, if the stats have anything to say, that you seem to want to make into a fringe existence and without relatives.

Wow... great thinking there.


You said, "You can not control a persons right to procreate", I simply pointed out that it could be done & it has been done.

Now, if you had of asked me, I would have told you that I personally think that China's ONE child policy may have been needed for them & perhaps for India, but everywhere else I would have gone for two children.

That said, I suspect that the days of governments having to enforce the size of families is probably now in the past, if the Global Population goes into decline within 20-30 years.

Btw, you certainly seem to make a few assumptions?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #163 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:20am
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:10am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
3) Regrettably, those poorer nations may pay a higher price, than others, as events move on.


Suffer the coloured peoples of this world. 'Tis regrettable... but... what choice is there?

Dude... that's friggen racist and amoral.


No, not at all, I simply do not see that there is a real world remedy!

So, your remedy is that Capitalism will save these people?
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Sappho
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #164 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 1:02am
 
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:20am:
Sappho wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:10am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
3) Regrettably, those poorer nations may pay a higher price, than others, as events move on.


Suffer the coloured peoples of this world. 'Tis regrettable... but... what choice is there?

Dude... that's friggen racist and amoral.


No, not at all, I simply do not see that there is a real world remedy!

So, your remedy is that Capitalism will save these people?


History shows that affluence reduces birth rates, because the likelihood of child mortality reduces significantly. Thus far, the only means to ensure affluence is Capitalism.

Quote:
Btw, you certainly seem to make a few assumptions?


You were the one who cited the One Child Policy. You were the one who choose not to extrapolate upon that idea.

Quote:
I would have told you that I personally think that China's ONE child policy may have been needed for them & perhaps for India, but everywhere else I would have gone for two children.


One child... two children... what does it matter what a Dictator decrees? They are still dictates enforced that go to the very core of human choice and seek to deny it.

Pity the divorcee with two children who would dare to fall in love with another who has none. 



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"Love is a cunning weaver of fantasies and fables."
 
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