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The Population Debate (Read 182000 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #165 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:42pm
 
Sappho wrote on Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:10am:
perceptions_now wrote on Aug 29th, 2010 at 10:17pm:
3) Regrettably, those poorer nations may pay a higher price, than others, as events move on.


Suffer the coloured peoples of this world. 'Tis regrettable... but... what choice is there?

Dude... that's friggen racist and amoral.


No, not at all, I simply do not see that there is a real world remedy!

So, your remedy is that Capitalism will save these people? [/quote]

History shows that affluence reduces birth rates, because the likelihood of child mortality reduces significantly. Thus far, the only means to ensure affluence is Capitalism.

Quote:
Btw, you certainly seem to make a few assumptions?[/quote]

You were the one who cited the One Child Policy. You were the one who choose not to extrapolate upon that idea.

Quote:
I would have told you that I personally think that China's ONE child policy may have been needed for them & perhaps for India, but everywhere else I would have gone for two children.


One child... two children... what does it matter what a Dictator decrees? They are still dictates enforced that go to the very core of human choice and seek to deny it.
Pity the divorcee with two children who would dare to fall in love with another who has none.  



As Malcolm Fraser said, "life wasn't meant to be easy" and he was right (pun intended)!

I didn't put US in this position, others did that over the last 50-60 years, but we now have to deal with the best of a whole bundle of bad choices, which are not of our making, at least not of the majority of us!

Btw, you did start the chain of events, all I have done since is comment on what has actually happened & what is likely to happen.




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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #166 - Aug 30th, 2010 at 12:59pm
 
Social Security: The Futile Fight For What's Been Promised


No discussion of the upcoming collapse of the bond market would be complete without a mention of Social Security.

At least, after they've lost their money in stocks, real estate and bonds, Americans will at least have Social Security to live on, right? Wrong!

You know all that money you pay in Social Security taxes? Where do you think it goes? Into current expenses and US bonds!

That's right, the feds just use the money to finance whatever fool scheme they've got going at the moment...and give the Social Security Administration a bond in return. In theory, the SSA has assets. In practice, all they've got is the hope that the feds can squeeze enough money out of taxpayers to meet their obligations.

Can they?

...

Professor Laurence Kotlikoff:

Social Security has also played a central role in the massive, six-decade Ponzi scheme known as US fiscal policy, which transfers ever-larger sums from the young to the old.

In so doing, Uncle Sam has assured successive young contributors that they would have their turn, in retirement, to get back much more than they put in. But all chain letters end, and the US's is now collapsing.

The letter's last purchasers -
today's and tomorrow's youngsters - face enormous increases in taxes and cuts in benefits
. This fiscal child abuse, which will turn the American dream into a nightmare, is best summarized by the $202 trillion fiscal gap discussed in my last column.

The gap is the present value difference between future federal spending and revenue. Closing this gap via taxes requires doubling every tax we pay, starting now. Such a policy would hurt younger people much more than older ones because wages constitute most of the tax base.

What about cutting defense instead? Sadly, there's no room there. The defense budget's 5 percent share of gross domestic product is historically low and is projected to decline to 3 percent by 2020. And the $202 trillion figure already incorporates this huge defense cut.

Reducing current benefits, most of which go to the elderly, is another option. But such a policy is highly unlikely. The elderly vote and are well-organized, whereas 3-year-olds can neither vote, nor buy Congressmen.

In contrast, cutting future benefits is politically feasible because it hits the young. And that's where Congress is heading, starting with Social Security. The president's fiscal commission will probably recommend raising Social Security's full retirement age to 70 from 67, for those who are now younger than 45. This won't change the ages at which future retirees can start collecting benefits. It will simply cut by one-fifth what they get.


In other words, there is no question about whether the US government will default or not. It will default. The only question is how. Will it manage to slip out of its obligations by raising the inflation rate enough to slough them off? Or will it have to officially renounce them? Will it refuse to pay retirees? Or bondholders?

Any way you look at it, the situation is interesting. Retirees, employees, loafers and chiselers - all are stakeholders in the US government. They have something to lose and will fight to hold onto what they've been promised. Bondholders have something to lose too.

So far, the bondholders have been largely protected - even enriched. Stakeholders in Greece, Ireland and other countries have begun to feel the pain. In America, the class of stakeholders is actually increasing, as the public sector spends more and the private sector spends less.

Best guess: stakeholders, bondholders, placeholders, cupholders, napkin holders - they'll all take a loss.

Regards,

Bill Bonner
(Since 1999, Bill has been a daily contributor and the driving force behind The Daily Reckoning)

Link -
http://www.silverbearcafe.com/private/08.10/futile.html
=============
I would agree with Bill Bonner here, everyone will take a hair-cut (loss), but perhaps some more than others!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #167 - Sep 6th, 2010 at 6:01pm
 
'Population could halve'


MINISTER Mentor Lee Kuan Yew said that Singapore's population could shrink by half in 20 years if we do not 'replace ourselves'.

Singapore's fertility rate has fallen to 1.21 babies per person, far below the replacement level of 2.1.
MM Lee was speaking at the Tanjong Pagar GRC's inter-racial harmony day, where he joined some 1000 residents at a Ramadan break-fast ceremony.

He also spoke about the issue of Singapore's ageing population, and the need to address the population imbalance by bringing in immigrants.

Video of Lee Kuan Yew embedded in article.
Link -
http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/Singapore/Story/STIStory_575082.html
============
That would mean Singapore would go from a population of 5 million today, to a only 2,500,000 in 20 years time.

An Australian equivalent, would be from 22 million today, to a only 11,000,000 in 20 years time.
Given those circumstances, Australian immigration would have to run at 550,000 Million per year, just to stand still after 20 years.

OZ currently has what is regarded as high immiration, which current stands at around 270,000 P/A.

Japan's fertility rate is only a little above that of Singapore and Japan is anti immigration, so what do you think will happen there?
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #168 - Sep 9th, 2010 at 11:56am
 
David Rockefellers Speech for Population control




Notwithstanding the written comments at the end of the video, Rockerfeller makes some valid points!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #169 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 2:30pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited


At the root of all the converging crises of the World Problematique is the issue of human overpopulation. Each of the global problems we face today is the result of too many people using too much of our planet's finite, non-renewable resources and filling its waste repositories of land, water and air to overflowing.

The true danger posed by our exploding population is not our absolute numbers but the inability of our environment to cope with so many of us doing what we do.


Bringing about a sustainable balance between ourselves and the planet we depend on will require us, in very short order, to reduce our population, our level of activity, or both.
One of the questions that comes up repeatedly in discussions of population is, "What level of human population is sustainable?"


Sustainability

A sustainable population is one that can survive over the long term (thousands to tens of thousands of years) without either running out of resources or damaging its environmental niche (in our case the planet) in the process.

In addition a sustainable population must not grow past the point where those natural limits are breached. Using these criteria it is obvious that the current human population is not sustainable.


Carrying Capacity

Carrying capacity is the population level of an organism that can be sustained given the quantity of life supporting infrastructure available to it. If the numbers of an organism are below the carrying capacity of its environment, its birth rate will increase.

If the population exceeds the carrying capacity, the death rate will increase until the population numbers are stable. Carrying capacity can be increased by the discovery and exploitation of new resources (such as metals, oil or fertile uninhabited land) and it can be decreased by resource exhaustion and waste buildup, for example declining soil fertility and water pollution.


Note: "Carrying capacity" used in its strict sense means the sustainable level of population that can be supported. This implies that all the resources a population uses are renewable within a meaningful time frame.

An environment can support a higher level of population for a shorter period of time if some amount of non-renewable resources are used. If the level of such finite resources in the environment is very high, the population can continue at high numbers for quite a long time.

An increase in the carrying capacity of an environment can generally be inferred from a rise in the population inhabiting it. The stronger the rise, the more certain we can be that the carrying capacity has expanded. In our case a graph of world population makes it obvious that something has massively increased the world's carrying capacity in the last 150 years.

During the first 1800 years of the Common Era, like the tens of thousands of years before, the population rose very gradually as humanity spread across the globe. Around 1800 this began to change, and by 1900 the human population was rising dramatically:

...

Part of the early phase of this expansion was due to the settlement of the Americas, but the exploitation of this fertile land in the 16th to 19th centuries would not seem to be enough on its own to support the population explosion we have experienced. After all, humans had already spread to every corner of the globe by 1900. There is something else at work here.

The Role of Oil


That something is oil. Oil first entered general use around 1900 when the global population was about 1.6 billion. Since then the population has quadrupled. When we look at oil production overlaid on the population growth curve we can see a very suggestive correspondence:

...

However, we have to ask whether this is merely a coincidental match. A closer look at the two curves from 1900 to the 2005 reinforces the impression of a close correlation:
...

==============
Whilst viewing this article & charts you should bear in mind in was posted in May, 2007 and has just been re-posted, as was, with no updates, so some of the stats (particularly population figures) are now a little dated.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #170 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 2:46pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


The Food Factor

Are there other factors besides oil that may have contributed to the growth of the Earth's carrying capacity?

The main one that is usually cited is the enormous world wide increase in food production created by the growth of industrial agribusiness. There is no question that it has caused a massive increase in both yields and the absolute quantities of food being grown worldwide. While it has been celebrated with the popular label "The Green Revolution", there is nothing terribly miraculous about the process.

When you open up that so-called revolution, you find at its heart our friend petroleum.

Here's how it works. Industrial agriculture as practiced in the 20th and 21st centuries is supported by three legs: mechanization, pesticides/fertilizers and genetic engineering. Of those three legs, the first two are directly dependent on petroleum to run the machines and natural gas to act as the chemical feedstock. The genetic engineering component of agribusiness generally pursues four goals: drought resistance, insect resistance, pesticide resistance and yield enhancement. Meeting that last goal invariably requires mechanical irrigation, which again depends on oil.

Even more than other oil-driven sectors of the global economy, food production is showing signs of strain as it struggles to maintain productivity in the face of rising population, flattening oil production and the depletion of essential resources such as soil fertility and fresh water.

According to figures compiled by the Earth Policy Institute, world grain consumption has exceeded global production in six of the last seven years, falling over 60 million tonnes below consumption in 2006.
After keeping pace with population growth from 1960 until the late 1980s, per capita grain production has shown a distinct flattening and declining trend in the last 20 years.


Without large quantities of cheap oil, this revolution could not have occurred.

The United States currently uses over 12% of its total oil consumption for the production and distribution of food. As the oil supply begins its inevitable decline, food production will be affected. While it is probable that most nations will preferentially allocate oil and natural gas resources to agriculture by one means or another, it is inevitable that over the next decades the food supply key to maintaining our burgeoning population will come under increasing pressure, and will be subject to its own inescapable decline.


Carrying Capacity: Conclusion

Oil and its companion natural gas together make up about 60% of humanity's primary energy. In addition, the energy of oil has been leveraged through its use in the extraction and transport of coal as well as the construction and maintenance of hydro and nuclear generating facilities.

Oil is as the heart of humanity's enormous energy economy as well as at the heart of its food supply.
Humanity's use of oil has quadrupled the Earth's carrying capacity since 1900.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #171 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 3:05pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


Overshoot

In ecology, overshoot is said to have occurred when a population's consumption exceeds the carrying capacity of its environment, as illustrated in this graphic:

...

When a population rises beyond the carrying capacity of its environment, or conversely the carrying capacity of the environment falls, the existing population cannot be supported and must decline to match the carrying capacity. A population cannot stay in overshoot for long.

There are two ways a population can regain a balance with the carrying capacity of its environment. If the population stays constant or continues to rise, per capita consumption must fall. If per capita consumption stays constant, population numbers must decline.

Those portions of the population that are operating close to subsistence will experience a reduction in numbers, while those portions of the population that have more than they need will experience a reduction in their level of consumption, but without a corresponding reduction in numbers.

Populations in serious overshoot always decline.

These signals seem to be telling us we are approaching the maximum carrying capacity. If the carrying capacity were to be reduced as our numbers continued to grow we could find ourselves in overshoot rather suddenly. The consequences of that would be quite grave.


An Image of Overshoot


The predicament of a population entering overshoot is illustrated by a short scene from the children's cartoon series about Wile E. Coyote and the Road Runner.

As the scene opens, our hero, Wile E. Coyote, is zooming hungrily across the top of a mesa, propelled by the exuberant blast of his new Acme Rocket Roller Skates. Suddenly a sign flashes into view. It reads, "Danger: Cliff Ahead." The coyote tries desperately to change course, but his speed is too great and rocket roller skates are hard to control at the best of times. Just before the edge of the cliff the rocket fuel that was sustaining his incredible velocity runs out; the engines of his roller skates die with a little puff of smoke. The coyote begins to slow but it's too late, his inertia propels him onward. Suddenly the ground that moments before had ample capacity to carry him in his headlong flight falls away beneath him. As he overshoots the edge high above the canyon floor, he experiences a horrified moment of dawning realization before nature's impersonal forces take over.

...
===========
If you take Wile E. Coyote back just a little, so he is left teetering on the edge, then the slightest push or pull may have a profound affect on his future!

I am not sure that the "human condition" has the collective wisdom to pull back voluntarily, so we had best hope that a slight nudge was/is provided, as I suspect may be the case?

That said, the costs will still be great!


Btw, I have added the above cartoon, it was not in the article!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #172 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 3:29pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


Peak Oil

As we all know but are sometimes reluctant to contemplate, oil is a finite, non-renewable resource. This automatically means that its use is not sustainable. If the use of oil is not sustainable, then of course the added carrying capacity the oil has provided is likewise unsustainable.

Carrying capacity has been added to the world in direct proportion to the use of oil, and the disturbing implication is that if our oil supply declines, the carrying capacity of the world will automatically fall with it.

These two observations (that oil has expanded the world's carrying capacity and oil use is unsustainable) combine to yield a further implication. While humanity has apparently not yet reached the carrying capacity of a world with oil, we are already in drastic overshoot when you consider a world without oil.


What are the chances that we will experience a decline in our global oil supply? Of course given that oil is a finite, non-renewable resource, such an occurrence is inevitable.

Individual oil fields tend to show a more or less bell-shaped curve of production rates - rising, peaking and then falling. Once a field has entered decline it has been found that no amount of remedial drilling or new technology will raise its output back to the peak rate.

The signals of Peak Oil are all around for those who know what to look for: the continuing two-year-old plateau in the world's conventional crude oil production; the crash of Mexico's giant Cantarell oil field last year; the U.K. slipping from being an oil exporting nation to a net importer in 2005; the fact that three of the world's four largest oil fields are confirmed to be in decline; the analysis on The Oil Drum of Saudi Arabia's super-giant Ghawar field that indicates it may be teetering on the brink of a crash; the fact that over two thirds of the world's oil producing nations are experiencing declining production; delays and cost overruns in new projects in the Middle East, Kazakhstan and Canada's tar sands.

To make matters worse, according to several analyses including a very thorough one (pdf warning) done by a PhD candidate in Sweden, the addition of new projects is unlikely to delay the terminal decline by more than a few years.

Understanding the role of oil in expanding the earth's carrying capacity brings a new urgency to the topic of Peak Oil. The decline in oil supply will reduce the planet's carrying capacity, thus forcing humanity into overshoot with the inevitable consequence of a population decline.

The date of the peak will mark the point at which we should expect to see the first effects of overshoot. The rapidity of the decline following the peak will determine whether our descent will be a leisurely stroll down to the canyon floor or a headlong tumble carrying a little sign reading, "Help!"

Time Frame and Severity

The first questions everyone one asks when they accept the concept of Peak Oil is, "When is it going to happen?" and "How fast is the decline going to be?" Peak Oil predictions are hampered by the lack of data transparency by many oil producers.

As a result the fully correct answer to both questions is, "We don't know yet." This isn't the whole answer, though. As with many predictions we can specify probable ranges based on the current evidence, observed trends over the last few years and published future development and production plans.

The guesses are becoming more and more educated as time goes by.

Several "heavy hitters" in the Peak Oil field have said the peak has already happened. These include Dr. Kenneth Deffeyes (a colleague of Dr. M. King Hubbert), major energy investor T. Boone Pickens, energy investment banker Matthew Simmons (who first sounded the alarm about Saudi Arabia's impending depletion) and Samsam Bakhtiari, a retired senior expert with the National Iranian Oil Company.

The steepness of the post-peak decline is open to more debate than the timing of the peak itself. There seems to be general agreement that the decline will start off very slowly, and will increase gradually as more and more oil fields enter decline and fewer replacement fields are brought on line.

A full picture of the oil age is given in the graph below. This model incorporates actual production figures up to 2005 and my best estimate of a reasonable shape for the decline curve.

It also incorporates my belief that the peak is happening as we speak.

...
============
To paraphrase M. King Hubbert, it appears as if our ignorance is not as vast as our failure to use what we already know.

Carl Sagan put it this way -
“When Kepler found his long-cherished belief did not agree with the most precise observation, he accepted the uncomfortable fact. He preferred the hard truth to his dearest illusions; that is the heart of science.”

Or finally, as Don Rumsfeld would put it, "this is a known unknown"!

We need to accept the Reality that Energy depletion of Fossil Fuels is coming and it will arrive sooner, rather than later.

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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #173 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 7:08pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


Maintaining Our Carrying Capacity

The consequences of overshoot might be avoided if we could find a way to maintain the Earth's carrying capacity as the oil goes away.

To assess the probability of this, we need to examine the various roles oil plays in maintaining the carrying capacity and determine if there are available substitutes with the power to replace it in those roles.

The critical roles oil and its companion natural gas play in our society include transportation, food production, space heating and industrial production of such things as plastics, synthetic fabrics and pharmaceuticals. Of these the first three are critical to maintaining human life.

Transportation

Peak Oil is fundamentally a liquid fuels crisis. We use 70% of the oil for transportation. Over 97% of all transportation depends on oil. Full substitutes for oil in this area are unlikely (I'd go so far as to say impossible).

Biofuels are extremely problematic: their net energy is low, their production rates are also low, their environmental costs in soil fertility are too great. Crop based biofuels compete directly with food, while cellulosic technologies risk "strip mining the topsoil" at the production rates needed to offset the loss of oil.

Electricity will be able to substitute in some applications such as trains, streetcars and perhaps battery powered personal vehicles, though at significant cost in terms of both flexibility and economics.
There is no realistic substitute for jet fuel.


Food

Oil is used in tilling, planting, weeding, harvesting and transporting food, as well as in pumping water for crop irrigation. Natural gas is used to make the vast quantities of fertilizer required to support our industrial, monoculture agribusiness system. As oil and natural gas decline, global food output will fall.

This will be offset to some degree by the adoption of more effective and less resource-intensive farming practices. However, it is not clear that such practices could maintain the enormous food production required, especially as much of the world's farmland has been decimated by long term monocropping and will require fertility remediation to produce adequate crops without fertilizer inputs.

Heat

In northern climates the fuel of choice for building heat is natural gas. Gas is on its own imminent "peak and decline" trajectory, made worse by the fact that it is harder to transport around the world than oil.

The only realistic replacement for natural gas is electric heat. It is quite possible that the rapid adoption of electric resistance heating in cold climates could lead to a destabilization of under-maintained and over-used distribution grids, as well as localized shortages of generating capacity. While there are technologies that will allow us to increase the generation of electricity, they all have associated problems - coal produces greenhouse gases, nuclear power produces radioactive waste and is politically unpalatable in many countries and solar photovoltaic is still too expensive. Wind power is showing promise, but is still hampered by issues of scale and power variability.


I think that we will strive mightily to produce alternative energy sources to maintain the carrying capacity, but I am convinced we will ultimately fail.

This is due to issues of scale (no alternatives we have come up with so far come within an order of magnitude of the energy required), issues of utility (oil is so multi-talented that it would take a large number of products and processes to fully replace it), issues of unintended consequences (as is currently being recognized with biofuels) and issues of human behaviour (a lack of international cooperation is predicted by The Prisoner’s Dilemma, and behaviours such comfort-seeking, competition for personal advantage and a hyperbolic discount function are planted deep in the human genome as explained in Reg Morrison’s “The Spirit in the Gene” and in my article on Hyperbolic Discount Functions).


We will be able to replace some small portion of the carrying capacity provided by oil, but in the absence of oil it is not clear how long such alternatives will remain available, relying as they do on highly technical infrastructure that currently runs on oil like everything else.
==============
For those thinking that Coal may or will come to the rescue, you should be aware that about 80% of all Coal Production comes from the top 5 producers.

That said, the top producer by far, being China, is also a net importer of Coal, with large volumes infact, coming from Australia.

China has also vastly stepped up its own proction, in recent years and is using mountains of Coal in a vast program of building new Coal fired power stations.
This Production is questionable?
 




...

Outside of Australia there is little export capacity amonst the major world producers.

...

The issues of Human Behaviour & Un-intended Consequences may also play a significant part in future events!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #174 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 7:29pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


Given the fact that our world's carrying capacity is supported by oil, and that the oil is about to start going away, it seems that a population decline is inevitable. The form it will take, the factors that will precipitate it and the widely differing regional effects are all imponderables.

Some questions that we might be able to answer (though with a great degree of uncertainty) are "When will it start?", "When will it end?", "How much control will we have?", "How bad will it be?" and "How many people will be left?"

To set the parameters of our model, we need to answer the four questions I posed above.

When Will The Decline Start?

This depends entirely on the timing of Peak Oil.
My conclusion that the peak is occurring now makes it easy to pick a start date. The model starts this year, though a start date five or ten years from now would not affect the overall picture.


When Will it End?

Given that oil is a primary determinant of carrying capacity, the obvious answer is that the situation will stabilize when the oil is gone. The oil will never be completely gone of course, so we can modify that to read, "When oil is unavailable to most of humanity." We know that point will come, because oil is a finite, non-renewable resource, but when will that be?

Based on the model in the figure above I chose an end date of 2082, 75 years from now.

How Much Control Will We Have?
Will we be able to mitigate the population decline rate through voluntary actions such as reducing global fertility rates, and making the oil substitutions I mentioned above.

I have decided (perhaps arbitrarily) that the oil substitutions would not affect the course of the decline, but would be used to determine the sustainable number of people at the end of the simulation.

Fertility rates are an important consideration. The approach I've taken is to model the net birth rate, the combination of natural fertility and death rates that give us our current global population growth of 75 million per year. I modified that by having it decline by 0.015% per year. This reflects both a declining fertility rate due to environmental factors and some degree of women's education and empowerment, as well as a rising death rate due to a decline in the the global economy. I do not think that traditional humane models such as the Benign Demographic Transition theory will be able to influence events, given that the required economic growth is likely to be unavailable.

How Bad Will It Be?

This question comes from the assumption that the decline in net births alone will not be enough to solve the problem (and the simulation bears this out). This means that some level of excess deaths will result from a wide variety of circumstances. I postulate a rate of excess deaths that starts off quite low, rises over the decades to some maximum and then declines. The rise is driven by the worsening global situation as the overshoot takes effect, and the subsequent fall is due to human numbers and activities gradually coming back into balance with the resources available.


How Many People Will Be Left?

Taking the carrying capacity effects discussed above into account, I initially set the bar for a sustainable population at the population when we discovered oil in about 1850. This was about 1.2 billion people.

Next I subtracted some number to account for the world's degraded carrying capacity, then added back a bit to account for our increased knowledge and the ameliorating effects of oil substitutes. This is a necessarily imprecise calculation, but I have settled on a round number of one billion people as the long-term sustainable population of the planet in the absence of oil.

Comments

The model is a simple arithmetical simulation that answers the following question: "Given the assumptions about birth and death rates listed above, how will human population numbers evolve to get from our current population of 6.6 billion to a sustainable population of 1 billion in 75 years?" It is not a predictive model. It is aggregated to a global level, and so can tell us nothing about regional effects. It also cannot address social outcomes. Its primary intent is to allow us to examine the roll that excess deaths will play in the next 75 years.
==============
With the exception of the start date, which I put down as 2005 for Peak Oil, these are very subjective issues, with many possible variations.

That said, my guestimate would be around 2 Billion by the end of this century & I hope that figure will be sustainable.

Whilst I fully recognise the consequences here, I must point out that the consequences of trying to maintain "business as usual", would be far greater!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #175 - Sep 11th, 2010 at 7:47pm
 
Peak Oil, Carrying Capacity and Overshoot: Population, the Elephant in the Room - Revisited (Cont)


The Cost

The human cost of such an involuntary population rebalancing is, of course, horrific.

The peak excess death rate would happen in about 20 years, and would be about 200 million that year. To put this in perspective, WWII caused an excess death rate of only 10 million per year for only six years.

Given this, it's not hard to see why population control is the untouchable elephant in the room - the problem we're in is simply too big for humane or even rational solutions.

Summation

One of the common accusations leveled at those who present analyses like this is that by doing so they are advocating or hoping for the massive population reductions they describe, and are encouraging draconian and inhumane measures to achieve them.

Nothing could be further from the truth. I am personally quite attached to the world I've grown up in and the people that inhabit it, as is every other population commentator I am familiar with.

However, in my ecological and Peak Oil research over the last several years I have begun to see the shape of a looming catastrophe that has absolutely nothing to do with human intentions, good or ill.

It is the simple product of our species' continuing growth in both numbers and ability, an exponential growth that is taking place within the finite ecological niche of the entire world.

Our recent effusive growth has been fueled by the draw-down of primordial stocks of petroleum which are about to deplete while our numbers and activities continue to grow. This is a simple, obvious recipe for disaster.

This model is intended to give some clarity to that premonition of trouble. It carries no judgment about what ought to be, it merely describes what might be.

The model is likewise no crystal ball. It offers no predictions and no insights into the details of what will happen. It presents the simple arithmetic consequences of one set of assumptions, albeit assumptions that I personally feel have a reasonable probability of being fulfilled.

There are factors that will affect the course of events that have not been considered in the model. Readers may legitimately take me to task for not considering or summarily dismissing the various ways humanity is already trying to alleviate some of the foreseen dangers.
For instance, my model does not mention global warming or carbon caps, and dismisses most alternative energy sources as ineffective.


The model also does not address the regional differences that are bound to expand as the crisis unfolds.

While such criticisms are justified and are well worth exploring in the context of oil decline, the purpose of this article is to take a high-level look at the global population situation, considering the entire planet as one ecological niche with a single aggregate carrying capacity supported by oil in its role as a facilitator of transportation and food production.

The model warns us that the involuntary decline of the human population in the aftermath of the Oil Age will not happen without overwhelming universal hardship.

There are things we will be able to do as individuals to minimize the personal effects of such a decline, and we should all be deciding what those things need to be.

It's never too early to prepare for a storm this big.
Link -
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6924
=============
To paraphrase M. King Hubbert, it appears as if our ignorance is not as vast as our failure to use what we already know.

Carl Sagan put it this way -
“When Kepler found his long-cherished belief did not agree with the most precise observation, he accepted the uncomfortable fact. He preferred the hard truth to his dearest illusions; that is the heart of science.”

Or finally, as Don Rumsfeld would put it, "this is a known unknown"!

We need to accept that Energy depletion of Fossil Fuels is coming and it will arrive sooner, rather than later.
We need to develop alternative energy sources, particularly for transport, with the urgency of a Manhattan style project, while limiting population growth and the excessive material aspirations of the Global population, to realize a sustainable society.
If we (humans) do not adopt and plan for these known circumstances voluntarily, it will inevitably be imposed upon us by nature or ourselves, probably in a much less desirable way.
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lerche007
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #176 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 7:50pm
 
Hi Perceptions,

Quoting experts perceptions doesn't make it right,and these arguments have been around for years!
The experts in the 1970,s claimed that by NOW we would be out of oil!
Which reflected high prices,in which made firms get off their arses and find more!
Today we have twice as much and we use three as much,since 'the end is near days' of the 70's,or thereabouts. They want U to believe in peak oil,so they can get as much mileage as possible before technology takes over oil,and they out the door with nothing to sell.
And because its logical to assume that a substance like oil takes about 1million odd years to to produced its obviously finite,a top selling point! So up go the prices,oil is used to suck the life blood out of the economy!
Don't U think they wont happen to find more oil?
How many inventors of other forms of engines have been silenced bought out,over the decades?
New sources like Canada sands once claimed by the EXPERTS again as noncommercial?
And lets talk about Australia's  Energy problems... what problems?
With our small population we have gas supplies alone that exceed 100 odd years,we have oil too, and coal  and yellow cake so what's the problem?






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lerche007
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #177 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 8:04pm
 
David Rockefellers Speech for Population control

Or UN agenda 21...

Look at the flip side of the Rockafella statement of the call of 7 billion people shrink down 2billion sustainability,I bet they not included though.

If they were included, no need to bump off 4 billion odd people,their wealth alone would double everyone left standing!

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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #178 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 9:12pm
 
lerche007 wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 8:04pm:
David Rockefellers Speech for Population control

Or UN agenda 21...

Look at the flip side of the Rockafella statement of the call of 7 billion people shrink down 2billion sustainability,I bet they not included though.

If they were included, no need to bump off 4 billion odd people,their wealth alone would double everyone left standing!



The fact is we (humans) will soon be unable to support 7 Billion people on this planet.

That fact will still remain, irrespective of what wealth some people have and I have no doubt that those in "wealthy countries" will have a better cahnce of survival, than those in not so wealthy countries.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #179 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 9:48pm
 
lerche007 wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 7:50pm:
Hi Perceptions,

1) Quoting experts perceptions doesn't make it right,and these arguments have been around for years!
2) The experts in the 1970,s claimed that by NOW we would be out of oil!Which reflected high prices,in which made firms get off their arses and find more!
3) Today we have twice as much and we use three as much,since 'the end is near days' of the 70's,or thereabouts. They want U to believe in peak oil,so they can get as much mileage as possible before technology takes over oil,and they out the door with nothing to sell.
And because its logical to assume that a substance like oil takes about 1million odd years to to produced its obviously finite,a top selling point! So up go the prices,oil is used to suck the life blood out of the economy!

4) Don't U think they wont happen to find more oil?
5) How many inventors of other forms of engines have been silenced bought out,over the decades?
6) New sources like Canada sands once claimed by the EXPERTS again as noncommercial?
7) And lets talk about Australia's  Energy problems... what problems?
With our small population we have gas supplies alone that exceed 100 odd years,we have oil too, and coal  and yellow cake so what's the problem?



1) You are right quoting experts doesn't make something right, as can be seen from the rubbish that came from & still comes from, many Economists & Politicians.
But, if the facts fit the argument, then you have to recognise it enough to do your own DD, then you can dismiss it or accept it, based on something that adds up, not on an Economist living in the past or a Pollies spin.

2) There may have been, but the main one (Hubbert) claimed the USA would Peak in 1970, which it did and Global Peak would be just after the turn of the century and I am calling it for 2005.
Of course he did not say Peak was the end of Oil, just the Peak of Production.
However, based on "proven Global Reserves" and current usage, Oil would run out in around 40 years.
That said, it won't happen quite like that, because many of the variables will change, with Population first rising and then falling, other Energy sources being introduced &/or increased in the mix, changes in products such as Electric cars and a host of other issues.

But, the over-riding consideration, is that Oil particularly & Fossil Fuels in general, are on the endangered list, they will become extinct and the only thing left is the final date.
3) Inflation is a bitch, isn't it! I came accros an article recently where the author talked about the DOW being 20,000 in 2020 and all that was needed was a 7% CAGR (Compound Annual Growth Rate).
Doesn't sound much, right?

But, it would take the current Population of just under 7 Billion, to around 11.25 Billion, by 2020.

That's an additional 4.25 Billion people in just 10 years?

Possible, yeah?

Likely, not a chance in hell!

And the same goes for DOW 20,000 in 2020.

In fact, the DOW may well be lucky to still be north of 2,000 in 2020?

Or, it could be simply pushing up daisies, along with an increasing number of Baby Boomers, who are in the process of causing a massive Economic downturn, together with Peak Oil, which has already arrived!
4) Yes, we (humans) will! Just not anywhere near enough to make up the decline rate of existing fields. To do so, would mean finding and putting into full production, about ONE NEW SAUDI ARABIA, EVERY 4 YEARS, over the next 20 years.
Given that Oil discoveries have been in decline since 1964, that is unlikely!


...

5) We shall soon see!
6) Sources such as the Canadian Tar Sands, Deep Ocean wells and some other remote areas are coming into play, precisely because the Oil price has risen to where it is now, but even all of those new resources will only marginally extend Oils lifetime.
7)  I suspect, if you were to ask that question of some young Australians, AT THE END OF THIS CENTURY, they would ask you, WHAT POSSESSED YOU TO SELL OUR FUTURE?
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