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The Population Debate (Read 181988 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #285 - Nov 27th, 2011 at 4:33pm
 
A Nation’s Population Decline Is A Catalyst For Economic Decline


Italy's problems have revealed the extent of the euro zone crisis.
http://www.investors.com/image/ISS2_111121.png.cms

Following the collapses in Portugal, Ireland and Greece, and with Italy teetering, the dream of a stable European monetary system is now over. And central to Italy's implosion is its negative population growth — an important lesson for a continent whose citizens are aging at an ever faster rate.

Population growth doomsayers from Thomas Malthus onward — who have claimed that population increases will lead to resource scarcity and disaster — have widely missed the mark, though such predictions continue. And few issues today are as highly ideological and politicized as family planning.

In Europe, population decline — not population growth — has proven a strong catalyst for economic decline.

Italy — along with most of Europe, as some commentators have noted — now faces a perfect storm. Growth is hindered by an ever-increasing debt burden, by a decrease in creative and energetic young workers and by an increasingly older population that has a great stake in preserving entitlement spending. Furthermore, GDP is unlikely to grow significantly while the work force shrinks.

With all of these scenarios in play, sustainable growth in Italy — and Europe — seems unrealistic in the foreseeable future.


With Europe's demographic issues, it is worth revisiting the work of economist Julian Simon. Decades ago, he made the case that people were "the ultimate resource," writing in his book by that name: "The standard of living has risen along with the size of the world's population since the beginning of recorded time." He added: "There is no convincing economic reason why these trends toward a better life should not continue indefinitely."

In the political world, Simon's contemporary, Ronald Reagan, also took a balanced view of population growth.

In 1984, James Buckley, Reagan's representative to the Conference on Population in Mexico City said: "First, and foremost, population growth is, of itself, neither good nor bad. It becomes an asset or a problem in conjunction with other factors, such as economic policy, social constraints and the ability to put additional men and women to useful work. People, after all, are producers as well as consumers."  

Population decline is a different matter.


To have producers or consumers, a country must have people — and they are increasingly in short supply in Europe. Italy's birthrate is now estimated at 1.39, and a 2007 National Institute on Aging study noted that Italy — along with France, Germany, Greece, Russia and the Ukraine — has already "seen an absolute decline in the size of their workforce."

According to the EU's own statistics: "From 2015 onwards deaths would outnumber births, and hence population growth due to natural increase would cease. From this point onwards, positive net migration would be the only population growth factor. However, from 2035 this positive net migration would no longer counterbalance the negative natural change, and the population is projected to begin to fall."

Europe's aging population and its elderly dependency ratio (the number of people over 65 divided by the number of those of working age) will also make entitlement reform untenable.

In Italy, the UN estimates that by 2050 the total dependency ratio will be more than 100.

In other words, there are likely to be more people too young or old (under 19 or over 65) to be in the workforce than there are workers (those 19-64).

The tax and economic consequences are obvious.


Italy's piper will no longer wait, and Italy's crisis is Europe's future. As a result, in the short term, there is no avoiding the stark truth that Europe as a whole is facing a decline in population, and subsequently, in economic strength as well.

Link -
http://australianpropertyforum.com/topic/9227814/1/
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The fact is that Population Growth (slowing & then decline) & the current Baby Boomer Aging, are massive influences on the Global Economy!

And, when mixed, sliced & diced together with the other current Macro factors, such as Peak Energy, Peak Debt & Climate Change, we really do find ourselves in the perfect storm, the perfect catch 22 or the perfect Dilemma!

Call it what we may, the facts are that the Aging Population is Economically damaging, the slowing Population rate is Economically damaging, a Global Population in actual Decline would be an Economic nightmare, as would be a declining Fossil Fuel Production rate, which is now very near!

The fact is, we face some very stark choices, none of them are rosy and none of them will bring back the past!

The fact is, that Malthus was correct, population increases have led to resource scarcity, including Fossil Fuel Energy, Food Production & future fresh water scarcity.

But, the fact is, Malthus could not have foreseen that Peak Population & all of the relevant scarcities, would come just as the Greatest Population Aging in history was getting under way & the Great Population decline was also about to start!  

There are things that must be done, but they will need to be fair or the final outcomes may be far worse than thought!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #286 - Nov 30th, 2011 at 10:17pm
 
The World In One Generation: Population Trends


In the vein of documenting how the world most likely will look one generate hence, my researcher and I have been taking a look at a number of key global drivers. One, of course, is how we govern ourselves (you can see posts on that topic here and here). Another is global population.

Working with data from the US Census Bureau and International Data Base, we’ve also overlayed some information from Internet World Stats, though for now, the fit is imperfect. Still and all, I found a lot to note in these reports. Thirty-odd years from now, the world is going to be a pretty different place, population wise. I’ve loaded the entire deck, created by my research manger LeeAnn Prescott, up on Slideshare. It has more detail, but I’m going to hit the main points in this post. First, to the basics. Here are population projections by world regions for 2013 (the year What We Hath Wrought comes out), and 2045 (roughly 30 years later):  

...

As you can see, Europe is shrinking, Asia and Africa are booming. Put another way:
...

North American stays pretty constant, but African eats into Asia’s dominance. Important, for sure, but as we’ll see later, life expectancy will have something to say about all this. Before we go there, however, check out the top countries in terms of increased population:
...

LeeAnn points out a “long tail” of population forming, in other words, by 2045 population will be far less concentrated in the top ten countries. A list of the fastest growing and fastest declining countries also is of note:
...

Let’s pivot to the media age of populations. This is a key metric of social stability – societies dominated by young people are often restive, in particular if they find themselves under autocratic regimes. The detailed data on the Middle East and North Africa for example, that shows that region moving from an average age of 26 in 2013 (young and restive) to nearly a decade older (older, more interested in stability).  Note that the median age in Africa is rising toward what could augur instability by 2045. Asia and Latin America are aging the fastest.
...

...

A list of oldest and youngest countries is interesting (above), as is the average life expectancy, where Africa, which had the most room to make up, adds more than a decade.
...

By country, it’s interesting to note that the US is not on the list of top nations in terms of life expectancies.
...

Link -
http://battellemedia.com/archives/2011/11/the-world-in-one-generation-population...
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A few observations -
1) Whilst this report suggests that the Global Population may continue to grow to over 9 Billion, by 2045, I would suggest for various reasons (including lack of Food & Energy sources) that the Global Population will struggle to reach 8 Billion.
In fact, instead of the large growth suggested in Africa & Asia, I would suggest those areas are going to struggle and they may even be in  decline by 2045.

2) Africa, in particularly, will really struggle, under severe Food production restraints, a lack of natural Energy sources and Climate Change, intervening strongly.

3) The Global Median Age will also increase more than expected, due to the decline in Population in younger areas, such as Africa & Asia.





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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #287 - Dec 9th, 2011 at 8:20am
 
Korea’s impending population crisis


The latest report by Statistics Korea on Korea’s rapid greying is hair-raising, hopefully even for those who do not take Korea’s low fertility problem seriously.

Today, approximately 70% of Korea’s population is in the working age (between 15 and 64.) Stated differently, 100 Koreans in working age are supporting around 37 children and the elderly. But by 2060, less than 50% of Korea’s population is projected to be in working age. In other words, by 2060, 100 Koreans in working age are supporting 101 children and the elderly. The total population will decrease to 43 million.

Even more frightening is the fact that this estimate is not based on the assumption that the current fertility rate of 1.23 will continue, but based on the assumption that the fertility rate will rise all the way until 2045.

If it were assumed that the fertility rate will fall to 1.01 and the inbound immigration does not increase, by 2060 Korea will only have 34.5 million people, around 33% drop from 50 million people that it currently has.


Even assuming increased inbound immigration and significant increase in fertility rate, Korea’s choice appears to be between gradual, manageable population decrease or rapid, catastrophic population decrease.

Link -
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2011/12/08/koreas-impending-population-crisis/
===========================================
The Global Economy was built on the expectation that Population, Natural Resources & Money supply would "Exponentially Grow", FOREVER!

That assumption was not correct!
 
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #288 - Dec 17th, 2011 at 11:12am
 
Russia census: population continues to decline


Russia has lost 2.3 million people in nearly a decade, according to the official results of the county’s second post-Soviet census, released on Friday.

Russia’s population declined from 145.2 million in 2002 to 142.9 million last year, the statistical agency, Rosstat, said.

Low birthrates and declining life expectancy have had the most effect on Russia’s heartland rural areas, with 8,500 villages said to be have been abandoned since 2002.

Of Russia’s 134,000 villages, 19,400 are now empty.


The new data also suggests that there are now 10.7 million more women than there are men - up from 10 million in 2002. The population’s average age is now hovering around 39 years - again up from 37.7 in 2002.

Link -
http://en.riasp@m/russia/20111216/170298252.html
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There are ups & downs, in the Population Decline process, but the overall trends involve lower Demand accross a range of "Goods & Services" and therefore a slowing Economy!

Given that this Population Decline is a long term process, there is little to no point in trying to artificially inflate Economic Growth, at great cost to national Debt to GDP ratios, but which will show very little benefit to an overall Economy!
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Emma
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #289 - Dec 18th, 2011 at 1:54am
 
Thank you perceptions_now. 
This has been very interesting reading. 

Your projections are - to me, reassuring. 
Human population increases may have helped economies.... but as you have pointed out .. if growth continued the earth would not be able to support it. Better to live within our means than to bankrupt the life of the planet.  You can't eat money.
I know this is not your point precisely. But it is, in effect.

There are simply .. too many people.. despite the economist 's views....  and it seems from your interesting pie charts etc.  that the NECESSARY is already happening.  The population that are producers will be much fewer than required to support the elders.
Its a whole WORLD OF PAIN, coming up folks.
Think twice before having that next baby.

Endless growth is not only infeasible and unsustainable.. it is also BAD  Smiley for everything and everyone.

LESS PEOPLE = GOOD.

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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #290 - Dec 22nd, 2011 at 9:10pm
 
Economy Contributes to Slowest Population Growth Rate Since ’40s


WASHINGTON — The population of the United States grew this year at its slowest rate since the 1940s, the Census Bureau reported on Wednesday, as the gloomy economy continued to depress births and immigration fell to its lowest level since 1991.

The first measure of the American population in the new decade offered fresh evidence that the economic trouble that has plagued the country for the past several years continues to make its effects felt.

The population grew by 2.8 million people from April 2010 to July 2011, according to the bureau’s new estimates. The annual increase, about 0.7 percent when calculated for the year that ended in July 2011, was the smallest since 1945, when the population fell by 0.3 percent in the last year of World War II.

“The nation’s overall growth rate is now at its lowest point since before the baby boom,” the Census Bureau director, Robert M. Groves, said in a statement.

The sluggish pace puts the country “in a place we haven’t been in a very long time,” said William H. Frey, senior demographer at the Brookings Institution. “We don’t have that vibrancy that fuels the economy and people’s sense of mobility,” he said. “People are a bit aimless right now.”

Underlying the modest growth was an immigration level that was the lowest in 20 years. The net increase of immigrants to the United States for the year that ended in July was an estimated 703,000, the smallest since 1991, Mr. Frey said, when the immigrant wave that dates to the 1970s began to pick up pace. It peaked in 2001, when the net increase of immigrants was 1.2 million, and was still above 1 million in 2006. But it slowed substantially when the housing market collapsed, and the jobs associated with its boom that were popular among immigrants disappeared.

“Net immigration from Mexico is close to zero, and we haven’t seen that in at least 40 years,” said Jeffrey S. Passel, senior demographer at the Pew Hispanic Center. “We are in a very different kind of immigration situation.”

Economic trauma tends to depress births. In the Great Depression, the birth rate fell by a third, Mr. Johnson said.

Link -
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/22/us/economy-contributes-to-slowest-population-g...
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Demographics is one of the major Economic influencing factors, of the modern era, along with Cheap & available Energy, Innovation and a favorable Global Climate.

By Demographics, I mean the unrelenting Growth in Population and therefore Growth in Demand for Products & Services AND this was never more evident than during the Golden years of the Great Baby Boom, roughly from 1945-2005.

This Peak period was actually cut a little short, in the USA, and to a somewhat lesser extent elsewhere, due to the events of 9/11.

Whilst the article says, the "Economy Contributes to Slowest Population Growth Rate", it also acts in reverse, with a slowing Population Growth contributing to a slowing Economic Growth rate!

It's a bit like the self re-enforcing, adverse Climate Change Feedback loops!

Anyway, this situation has already started in Japan, the USA & parts of Europe, with most of the rest of the world now following, including China!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #291 - Dec 22nd, 2011 at 9:39pm
 
Thanks again perceptions_ now.  Smiley

It's a lot to think on, given  our cultural context of growth growth growth - at all costs.
Never liked it myself because..it was never a long term viable option.
We just got told that so that the rich got richer. And so the culture of consumerism, of 'branding' ..( Angry) is our reality.

And this is where we are at.!
Losing population, losing fecundity... due to the unreal world too many people live and EAT in. So - our hedonistic western culture is moving in it's logical direction. Whilst from what I have read on this forum actually, amongst other sources, the underdeveloped, over-populated countries like India are forging ahead regardless.

I used to believe that overpopulation would see the end of us , paradoxical as that might seem.

And , you know?---perhaps I still think so .... but I'm beginning to think that conflict, famine, and genetic mutation due to pollutants, poor choices and ??   will do the job instead. -
Of course - overpopulation has already led to conflict and famine. 
And most certainly, our chosen (?) path offers no real salvation.

But it's interesting to hear economistic forecasts put slowing growth and such - largely down to a decrease in Immigration.

Roll Eyes



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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #292 - Dec 22nd, 2011 at 10:09pm
 
Emma wrote on Dec 22nd, 2011 at 9:39pm:
Thanks again perceptions_ now.  Smiley

It's a lot to think on, given  our cultural context of growth growth growth - at all costs.
Never liked it myself because..it was never a long term viable option.
We just got told that so that the rich got richer. And so the culture of consumerism, of 'branding' ..( Angry) is our reality.

And this is where we are at.!
Losing population, losing fecundity... due to the unreal world too many people live and EAT in. So - our hedonistic western culture is moving in it's logical direction. Whilst from what I have read on this forum actually, amongst other sources, the underdeveloped, over-populated countries like India are forging ahead regardless.

I used to believe that overpopulation would see the end of us , paradoxical as that might seem.

And , you know?---perhaps I still think so .... but I'm beginning to think that conflict, famine, and genetic mutation due to pollutants, poor choices and ??   will do the job instead. -
Of course - overpopulation has already led to conflict and famine. 
And most certainly, our chosen (?) path offers no real salvation.

But it's interesting to hear economistic forecasts put slowing growth and such - largely down to a decrease in Immigration.

Roll Eyes





This world is now full of "catch 22's" and "paradoxes" of epic proportions and with the final outcomes not quite set in stone, the end scenario's may play out in some expected ways, but also in some unexpected ways!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #293 - Dec 22nd, 2011 at 10:28pm
 
Oh yes indeedy.

Might live to see it yet.!  Smiley Roll Eyes
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #294 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 8:53pm
 
Japan's population decreasing at fastest postwar rate


TOKYO (Kyodo) -- Japan's population decreased in 2011 at the fastest pace in the postwar era with the decline, calculated by deducting the number of deaths from that of births, coming to an estimated 204,000, health ministry estimates showed Saturday.

The decrease was over 1.5 times higher than the revised figure of about 125,000 the year before and was the biggest since comparable data became available in 1947, the survey said. It was the fifth straight annual decline since 2007.

The estimated number of newborn babies in 2011 fell to a record-low 1,057,000, down by 14,000, while that of people who died in 2011 hit a record-high 1,261,000, up by 64,000, according to the survey by the Ministry of Health, Labor and Welfare.

Of the total number of deaths, 358,000 were attributed to cancer, 198,000 to heart disease and 126,000 to strokes.

An official of the ministry predicted that Japan's population will keep decreasing at a faster pace as the number of deaths will continue to rise given the rapid aging of society, while the size of the younger generation will shrink.

Link -
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/20120101p2g00m0dm030000c.html
================================
So goes Japan, so goes most other countries, Japan was simply one of the first few!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #295 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 10:50pm
 
I remember remarking to a friend...  that this now generation will be the first to see a fall in life expectancy, despite all our wealth and tech. He was horrified, saying no way. ... the human life expectancy will keep on increasing.. it was inevitable, undeniable. 

I begged to differ- offering reasons such as is illustrated by the prev post. 

Time will tell.! Smiley
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #296 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:12pm
 
Emma wrote on Jan 1st, 2012 at 10:50pm:
I remember remarking to a friend...  that this now generation will be the first to see a fall in life expectancy, despite all our wealth and tech. He was horrified, saying no way. ... the human life expectancy will keep on increasing.. it was inevitable, undeniable. 

I begged to differ- offering reasons such as is illustrated by the prev post. 

Time will tell.! Smiley



Er... that article is about population decline, not life expectancy decline.

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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #297 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:32pm
 
ah soren again .. thanks for your clarification.  As you say, it was about the declining pop in Japan. +
I was thinking laterally, 'cos seems to me, a declining pop , with a changing demographic towards older people and declining births MUST, after an initial peak, which we see at the moment, result in an overall decline in life expectancy.
Look at some of the 'young countries' , as provided earlier by perceptions_now, and ask yourself ....is it likely that these, often very populated strife-torn and poor countries, are going to be able to sustain a lifestyle which will increase life expectancy. ?? 

What do you think?  As the pool of subjects becomes smaller, relatively, and the older people drop out of the equation, the life expectancy decreases.   


Happy New Year. Smiley
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #298 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:34pm
 
So?? what do I know??

SFA.... I can spin it too.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #299 - Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:40pm
 
Emma wrote on Jan 1st, 2012 at 11:32pm:
ah soren again .. thanks for your clarification.  As you say, it was about the declining pop in Japan. +
I was thinking laterally, 'cos seems to me, a declining pop , with a changing demographic towards older people and declining births MUST, after an initial peak, which we see at the moment, result in an overall decline in life expectancy.
Look at some of the 'young countries' , as provided earlier by perceptions_now, and ask yourself ....is it likely that these, often very populated strife-torn and poor countries, are going to be able to sustain a lifestyle which will increase life expectancy. ?? 

What do you think?  As the pool of subjects becomes smaller, relatively, and the older people drop out of the equation, the life expectancy decreases.   


Happy New Year. Smiley



Waaaay too lateral. I can see that "don't change" was one of your new year resolutions. Tongue
People do not live long because there is a lot of them. With lower birth rates, there will be fewer Japanese to get really old. But those that are born are likely to get really old.

Anyway, happy new year to you, too.
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