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The Population Debate (Read 181922 times)
perceptions_now
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The Population Debate
Jun 17th, 2010 at 9:43pm
 
Japan's Population Problem

Low fertility rates and longer life spans are leading to an older and smaller population.

Japan's population is aging and declining. Two main forces are responsible: declining fertility rates and lengthening life spans:
1. Fewer babies. A total fertility rate of 2.1 would keep a population stable, assuming no migration. Japan hit this level in 1960, falling persistently below since 1975. The total fertility rate reached a low of 1.26 in 2005.

2. Longer lives. Japanese women attained the longest life expectancy among 228 countries in 1982, according to World Bank data, and have held that position to now.

Smaller workforce
Japan's population peaked in 2004 at 127.8 million. Current projections expect the rate of decline to accelerate to 1% annually by 2050. The workforce hit its high in 1999 and is now already 2.5% smaller.

A smaller workforce and an aging population imply that the ratio of workers to non-workers will fall. The conventionally measured dependence ratio--the number of workers that must cover the dependent population of young and retired--compares the number of people in the 15-64 year old age group to all others. The fertility collapse and aging have pushed the ratio down to 1.8 this year, with a projected ratio of one worker per dependent after 2050. Were this to happen, the consequences for taxes, transfers and incentives could be enormous.
Link -
http://www.forbes.com/2010/06/14/japan-population- aging-business-oxford-analytica.html?feed=rss_busi ness
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Some things that await the rest of the world, over the next 20-30 years.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #1 - Jun 17th, 2010 at 9:44pm
 
Japan's Population Structure

Some interesting graph's, which you will need to look at yourself.

That said, the total Japanese Population level has been basically stagnant for a decade and it is about to start a long term decline, which will see a 25% actual reduction, that is 32 million people less, by 2050!

Link -
http://japanjapan.blogspot.com/2010/06/japans-popu lation-structure.html
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If the rest of the world remained in growth mode, as it did for the first 15 years of the Japanese dilemma, then they would muddle thru?

Regrettably, the rest of the world is about to enter into the Japanese Dilemma and we will bring a few extra dilemma's with us, such as Debt & Energy Decline
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #2 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:11pm
 
perceptions_now wrote on Jun 17th, 2010 at 9:44pm:
Japan's Population Structure

Some interesting graph's, which you will need to look at yourself.

That said, the total Japanese Population level has been basically stagnant for a decade and it is about to start a long term decline, which will see a 25% actual reduction, that is 32 million people less, by 2050!

Link -
http://japanjapan.blogspot.com/2010/06/japans-popu lation-structure.html
===========
If the rest of the world remained in growth mode, as it did for the first 15 years of the Japanese dilemma, then they would muddle thru?

Regrettably, the rest of the world is about to enter into the Japanese Dilemma and we will bring a few extra dilemma's with us, such as Debt & Energy Decline


...

...

Above are two of the charts, from the above article on the Japanese Population issue.

I'll get the hang of these new tools, sooner or later?

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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #3 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:37pm
 
That chart makes it look pretty drastic. But I still think it is a good thing. Overpopulation is the biggest threat to the world's quality of life, economy and environment, not an ageing population. China's boom would not be happening without the one child policy. They would be back to eating grasshoppers.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #4 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:43pm
 
The Western press are in the business of attempting to frighten the Japanese with tales of a supposed imminent demographic disaster in their country unless they start opening up immigration. They have every right to give the West the middle finger; the problems aren't going to be that bad, and at any rate, trying to solve demographic problems like this by letting in millions more people is a short term solution.

The Japanese have this quaint idea that they like Japan the way it is; they want Japan to remain Japanese. I'm really sure that a few million Filipinos and Puerto Ricans are going to be huge enrichment for them. They're going to solve all of their problems, forever.

Good on them.
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« Last Edit: Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:58pm by aikmann4 »  
 
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #5 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:51pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:37pm:
That chart makes it look pretty drastic. But I still think it is a good thing. Overpopulation is the biggest threat to the world's quality of life, economy and environment, not an ageing population. China's boom would not be happening without the one child policy. They would be back to eating grasshoppers.


It's a perspective thing!.

From a long term point of view, there really isn't another viable choice, the Japanes have to head in that direction and so does the rest of the planet.

However, in the short to medium term, the Economic costs will be great.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #6 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:54pm
 
aikmann4 wrote on Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:43pm:
The Western press are in the business of attempting to frighten the Japanese with tales of a supposed imminent demographic disaster in their country unless they start opening up immigration. They have every right to give the West the middle finger; the problems aren't going to be that bad, and at any rate, trying to solve demographic problems like this by letting in millions more people is a short term solution.

The Japanese have this quaint idea that they like Japan the way it is; they want Japan to remain Japanese. I'm really sure that a few million Filipinos and Puerto Ricans is going to be huge enrichment for them. It's going to solve all of their problems, forever.

Good on them.


The "press" are also not saying anything about the Aging Boomers, AT ALL, because there are those who want the status quo to continue, which it can not!

Sorry, gotta go, diner awaits!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #7 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:56pm
 
Quote:
e Japanes have to head in that direction and so does the rest of the planet.


Or countries that are developed, at least. The denizens third world are going to continue to crank out babies until the cows come home. The labour pool there is practically limitless.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #8 - Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:59pm
 
Quote:
However, in the short to medium term, the Economic costs will be great.


Many of the benefits to China have been very short term. So will the benefits to the Japanese.

Consider, first up, the plight of a young Tokyo couple trying to buy a place to live near to where they work. Fortunately, Tokyo real estate hasn't really risen in price much in a long time. However, if you imagine that population chart being bell shaped with a lot more people in the under forty bracket, what would that do to the price of rent or land in Japan? Or the price of food?

This will make it easier for them to support the ageing population, because they won't be trying to support an exponentially increasing population of young people at the same time. An economy doe not need an ever increasing number of young people to prop up the old people in order to function. That is the sort of reasoning that makes Africans slaughter each other every time there is a drought.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #9 - Jun 19th, 2010 at 11:29am
 
freediver wrote on Jun 18th, 2010 at 8:59pm:
Quote:
However, in the short to medium term, the Economic costs will be great.


1) Fortunately, Tokyo real estate hasn't really risen in price much in a long time.

2) This will make it easier for them to support the ageing population, because they won't be trying to support an exponentially increasing population of young people at the same time.
An economy doe not need an ever increasing number of young people to prop up the old people in order to function.


1) That's actually an understatement, the Japanese R/E markets took a huge tumble beginning around 1990, I haven't looked for a while, but I believe it was down about 70%, from 1990 levels. Btw, the USA & Europe are now heading down a similar path and it seems likely that OZ will also, at some point, in the not too distant future.

2) This is where things start to get ineteresting, because Growth is one of the absolutes that underpin all current Economic models.
Be it Growth in Population, Energy supply, Money supply, in fact everything is on an ongoing, exponential increase basis.

And one of the longer term issues is that the Exponential function simply ins't possible to sustain, in the longer term the numbers become too large in everything and it all collapses!

So, long term, we have no option, we need to shrink!

That said, the short to medium term is difficult, because any economy which does not grow, which is in fact going to shrink, takes away many of the things which have come to be accepted as part of the "free enterprise" economic system.

If all markets are shrinking, including Population, Energy & Money, then the profit motive and increased volumes, basically get consigned to the toilet and the old "greed is Good" dies.

Now, some of that may not sound too bad, but the net effect on the economy, in the short to medium term, is that the economy contracts.

As everything delevers, the amount of taxes shrinks tremendously, just at the time when more taxes are needed, to pay for increased Aged Pensions (Baby Boomers) & increased Health Costs (Baby Boomers)

However, the exact opposite is actually happening, as tax revenues shrink, due to the "worker to population participation rate' shrinking, as the Baby Boomers first retire enmass & then pass away, over the next 20-30 years!

Sorry, I hope breakfast was good?  
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #10 - Jun 19th, 2010 at 9:39pm
 
You are leaving out the cost of raising and educating children. That gets a lot cheaper when the population shrinks, and it is not an insiginficant chunk of government revenue.

Plus, not all old people are useless, even if they don't know how to use a mouse.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #11 - Jun 19th, 2010 at 10:18pm
 
freediver wrote on Jun 19th, 2010 at 9:39pm:
You are leaving out the cost of raising and educating children. That gets a lot cheaper when the population shrinks, and it is not an insiginficant chunk of government revenue.

Plus, not all old people are useless, even if they don't know how to use a mouse.


Oh, I am sure the cost of education is significant, just no where near the Pension & additional Health costs of the largest generation in history, the Baby Boomers.

At least in OZ we have some advantages that other countries lack, for example we have a partial retirement fund for the Boomers under the "Super Guarantee" and the Dent level has started out low, whereas in the US most of their Boomers will retire pretty much with nothing and go straight onto the government pension and most other countries already have massive Debt.

The estimates I have seen suggest somewhere around $50-60 Trillion in unfunded liabilities for aged Pensions & Health.

By way of example, in days gone by, there were around 8 workers to fund the retirement of ONE retiree. Getting toward the end of the Boomer retirements, that ratio is estimated to decline to around 2/1!

The strain on government Revenue Vs Outlays, on a Global basis, is set to do what happened in economic growth, Debt is going Exponential, at least for the short to medium term!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #12 - Jun 19th, 2010 at 10:44pm
 
Freediver,
You have moved the Population & Peak Oil Threads, from the Political board to the General board, along with a few others.

Obviously, you may do as you wish, but these two are actually highly political and will in fact wield an extraordinary influence over politics, in the next 20-30 years.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #13 - Jun 19th, 2010 at 10:55pm
 
Yo Perceptions!

When Macca sees your graphic illustrations, she's gonna get her thong in a knot and have kittens...


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Jun 19th, 2010 at 11:06pm

PS I wouldn't be too concerned about the board shift, since this one gets higher billing.


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« Last Edit: Jun 19th, 2010 at 11:07pm by Equitist »  

Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #14 - Jun 21st, 2010 at 12:09am
 
Human race 'will be extinct within 100 years', claims leading scientist


As the scientist who helped eradicate smallpox he certainly know a thing or two about extinction.

And now Professor Frank Fenner, emeritus professor of microbiology at the Australian National University, has predicted that the human race will be extinct within the next 100 years.

He has claimed that the human race will be unable to survive a population explosion and 'unbridled consumption.’
Fenner told The Australian newspaper that 'homo sapiens will become extinct, perhaps within 100 years.'
'A lot of other animals will, too,' he added.
'It's an irreversible situation. I think it's too late. I try not to express that because people are trying to do something, but they keep putting it off.'
Since humans entered an unofficial scientific period known as the Anthropocene - the time since industrialisation - we have had an effect on the planet that rivals any ice age or comet impact, he said.

Fenner, 95, has won awards for his work in helping eradicate the variola virus that causes smallpox and has written or co-written 22 books.
He announced the eradication of the disease to the World Health Assembly in 1980 and it is still regarded as one of the World Health Organisation's greatest achievements.

He was also heavily involved in helping to control Australia's myxomatosis problem in rabbits.

Last year official UN figures estimated that the world’s population is currently 6.8 billion. It is predicted to exceed seven billion by the end of 2011.
Fenner blames the onset of climate change for the human race’s imminent demise.
He said: 'We'll undergo the same fate as the people on Easter Island.
'Climate change is just at the very beginning. But we're seeing remarkable changes in the weather already.'
'The Aborigines showed that without science and the production of carbon dioxide and global warming, they could survive for 40,000 or 50,000 years.
‘But the world can't. The human species is likely to go the same way as many of the species that we've seen disappear.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1287643/Human-race-extinct-100-ye...

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