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The Population Debate (Read 182132 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #45 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:36am
 
Demographic boom getting ready to bust


That ticking generational time bomb that politicians have been warning and arguing about for 30 years is about to explode on Jan. 1.

That’s the day when the first of roughly 80 million baby boomers turn 65. The boomer generation was the largest in American history until the Millennial Generation, those under 30, came along.

Whether you are a boomer or not, demographic trends will affect everything from taxes to immigration.

In the midst of one of the most transformative demographic shifts ever, the United States is rapidly becoming grayer and browner.

Eighty percent of those over 65 are white, compared to 56 percent of those under 15 — with Hispanics accounting for almost all the minority growth among children. By 2030, according to the Brookings Institution’s chief demographer, William Frey, 71 percent of the over-65 population and 46 percent of children under 15 will be white. Over the next decade, he predicts the working-age population will include 5 million fewer whites and 15 million more minorities, with 90 percent of the latter growth coming from Hispanics.


In coming decades, the working-age population’s growth will be among demographic groups with the least education and work skills. The high school dropout rate for Hispanics, for instance, is about twice the national average, Frey said.

At the same time, the huge generation of boomers is about to cash in on unsustainable entitlement promises.

“You have an older, whiter generation that is really going to be sucking up all the money in the future (through) Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and interest on the debt that they have run up during their tenure of running things, versus a poorer, more minority generation that is not getting the money,” Davis said.

What does this mean for you?

If you are a senior or approaching retirement with adequate savings and a pension, not much beyond a generational urge to make your grandchildren’s’ country as strong and as prosperous as it has been for you.

But some seniors may work longer, due to a lack of savings or because they work in professions like the sciences, where a dearth of qualified young workers may result in incentives to boomers to postpone retirement.

But if you are younger, higher taxes — or serious adjustments to expectations — appear inevitable. It is very difficult to see how the United States solves its long-term debt and entitlement promises without higher taxes for the middle class and the rich, or by cutting retirement-focused entitlement programs.
Tax-and-spend tensions are already emerging, with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer saying this week that a serious discussion needs to take place before Congress permanently extends middle-class tax cuts passed in the early months of Obama’s administration.

These are the hard truths that Americans say they want to hear from their politicians, but rarely do. Such positions often turn into political death sentences at the next election.
Link -
http://rocnow.com/article/opinion-syndicated-columns/20106240348
====
What will the Boomer Bust mean for OZ?

For a starter, higher taxes on those who can most afford it!

Lower Benefits & Services, for some!

An absolute efficiency drive, by governments at all levels and probably one less arm of government!

A complete simplification of Services, Outlays & Revenues, particularly the Tax system!
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« Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:39pm by perceptions_now »  
 
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freediver
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #46 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 12:21pm
 
Quote:
Actually, it does!

In the USA, the planets largest consummer of Energy, Oil is nearly twice as large, as the next two major Energy components


Do you know what the term majority means?
Quote:
Let me put it this way, this has never happened before, it is unique in history, so there are no hard numbers


There are hard numbers about the cost of investing in younger vs older generations. From there it is not hard to extrapolate to what happens if the proportion in each generation changes. Otherwise you are basically just scaremongering about something you know nothing about.

Quote:
Obviously this event will be unprecedented, as will the impact on the Global economy, which has previously relied on exponential growth!


The economy has never relied on exponential growth. That is a myth promoted by people who fear economic growth without understanding it. In fact there are plenty of occasions in history when a population reduction lead to an improvement in quality of life.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #47 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:24pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
Obviously this event will be unprecedented, as will the impact on the Global economy, which has previously relied on exponential growth!


Quote:
freediver
The economy has never relied on exponential growth. That is a myth promoted by people who fear economic growth without understanding it. In fact there are plenty of occasions in history when a population reduction lead to an improvement in quality of life.


I have previously agreed that over-population is one of the BIG problems and that we need to lower the total Global population, sooner rather than later, but it does need to be done gradually.

That said, I stand by my assertion that the decline in Population Growth, followed by an actual decline in total Global population, on the scale that is likely, is unprecedented.

This decline in Population Growth and total actual population levels, particularly when combined with the Boomer generation Aging and Peak Oil, can only lead to a massive decline in Demand and the end of the Exponential Economic Growth Fairy!

With respect, I must disagree with you regards Exponential Growth, it is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. The assumption is that there is & will be a constant exponential growth. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.  

In any event, we shall see what happens over the next 10-20 years.

But, I am now saying clearly, that Growth is coming to an end and there will be massive ramifications & costs, arising from these events.

In the longer term, we have no option but to bear these costs now, because the longer we postpone the inevitable, the greater will be those ramifications & costs!    
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #48 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 3:36pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
Actually, it does!

In the USA, the planets largest consummer of Energy, Oil is nearly twice as large, as the next two major Energy components


Quote:
freediver
Do you know what the term majority means?


Let me put it this way, with Oil contributing what it does and the next 2 closest sources also being finite and on the endangered list, for the not too distant future, we have some serious issues to overcome & we need to address them quickly!

...
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freediver
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #49 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:10pm
 
Quote:
That said, I stand by my assertion that the decline in Population Growth, followed by an actual decline in total Global population, on the scale that is likely, is unprecedented.


No it isn't. Every time a major plague swept through Europe and caused a major population crash, it resulted in an immediate improvement in quality of life.

Quote:
With respect, I must disagree with you regards Exponential Growth, it is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more.


Have you ever done any serious study of economics?

Quote:
The assumption is that there is & will be a constant exponential growth.


There is no such assumption. You are merely confusing the actual trend of long term growth that has been going on for a long time with assumptions or fundamental requirements. The only thing that depends on growth is growth.

Quote:
But, I am now saying clearly, that Growth is coming to an end and there will be massive ramifications & costs, arising from these events.


Growth in population is coing to an end. Growth in oil consumption is too. To suggest that growth in everything else must come to an end as a result of this is misinformed.

Quote:
and the next 2 closest sources also being finite and on the endangered list


Tell me about coal. When do you think we will start running out?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #50 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:51pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
That said, I stand by my assertion that the decline in Population Growth, followed by an actual decline in total Global population, on the scale that is likely, is unprecedented.


Quote:
freediver
No it isn't. Every time a major plague swept through Europe and caused a major population crash, it resulted in an immediate improvement in quality of life.


It seems that we may agree to disagree!  However, it does seem odd that you would disagree that 2 billion people dying, in the space of 20-30 years, is anything other than unprecedented?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #51 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 8:58pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
With respect, I must disagree with you regards Exponential Growth, it is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more.


Quote:
freediver
Have you ever done any serious study of economics?


Do you mean, like all of those Economists, who had all that training and didn't pick, what is so far, at least the 2nd biggest Economic slowdown in the last 100 years?

If so, the answer is no!

However, I did have 40 years in the Financial sector, including Insurance, Banking & Finance.

And, yourself?
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #52 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:09pm
 
Quote:
The assumption is that there is & will be a constant exponential growth.


Quote:
There is no such assumption. You are merely confusing the actual trend of long term growth that has been going on for a long time with assumptions or fundamental requirements. The only thing that depends on growth is growth.


As I said earlier, with respect, I must disagree with you regards Exponential Growth.

I agree that growth has been around for a lengthy part of recent history, but it is not automatic and it does depend on the basic factors of the economy, which are Population growth, Energy, Innovation & Debt.

It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth.  

As I said, lets see what happens over the next 10-20 years, but I doubt we will have to wait that long, to get the idea of where events will be heading.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #53 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:24pm
 
Quote:
perseptions_now
But, I am now saying clearly, that Growth is coming to an end and there will be massive ramifications & costs, arising from these events.


Quote:
freediver
Growth in population is coing to an end. Growth in oil consumption is too. To suggest that growth in everything else must come to an end as a result of this is misinformed.


The basic premise of what I am saying is that there is no such thing as exponential growth, everything on this planet has limits and for things such as Population & many of our essential resources are now bordering on those limits.

Whether you agree with me or disagree, is really relevant, as the proof will come in future years, again the next 10-20 years, will show the way.

If you haven't looked into these areas, the following sites may be of  interest. They are lengthy, but there is a great deal of valuable information in there, they are both very insightful people.   

Link (Dr. Albert A. Bartlett - Arithmetic, Population, and Energy) –
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=9B70AC68E1D2AA54&search_query=Dr.+Albert...

Link (The Crash Course – Chris Martenson) -
http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #54 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 9:28pm
 
Quote:
perseptions_now
and the next 2 closest sources also being finite and on the endangered list


Quote:
freediver
Tell me about coal. When do you think we will start running out?


Have a look into the Bartlett & Martenson sites/video's, I think you will find the answer to that question and a few others!
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #55 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 10:50pm
 
Quote:
It seems that we may agree to disagree!  However, it does seem odd that you would disagree that 2 billion people dying, in the space of 20-30 years, is anything other than unprecedented?


Only because the population is so much higher. Apparently there are more people alive today than were ever alive previously.

Quote:
Do you mean, like all of those Economists, who had all that training and didn't pick, what is so far, at least the 2nd biggest Economic slowdown in the last 100 years?


Yes they did. The economists at the reserve bank put our interest rates up well in advance. The fact that you did not understand what was going on in front of your face does not mean the economists (or anyone who has taken the time to look into this) don't understand what is going on. Or do you only trust economists who can predict the future with accuracy and detail?

Quote:
It is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more. Almost every time an Politician & Economist etc open their mouth, they talk about Growth. 


Growth of what? We can become wealthier, better off, etc, without exponenetial growth in population or energy consumption. You are basing your economic theory on piecing together random utterances about a subject you do not understand.

Quote:
The basic premise of what I am saying is that there is no such thing as exponential growth, everything on this planet has limits and for things such as Population & many of our essential resources are now bordering on those limits.


The only thing without limits is wealth. Our wealth today would be totally incomprehensible to someone from 500 years ago. They would not think it possible. To them, it would be indistinguishable from magic.  You are that person from 500 years ago making predictions based on nothing but the limitations of your understanding and imagination.
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #56 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:09pm
 
freediver,
I is apparent that you didn't look thru either of those sites that I referred you to.

If you had taken the time to go thru Bartlett's video's, particularly episodes 4 & 5, you would have got the answer to your coal question (which is a lot shorter than you think) and you may not be posing some of the queries that you are raising.

As I said previously, it appears that we will agree to disagree, but irrespective what either of us may think now, the next 10-20 years will clarify the facts.

Finally, I will leave you with this thought -

Facts do not cease, because they are ignored!

Until later!
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #57 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:15pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
With respect, I must disagree with you regards Exponential Growth, it is in back of everything including Population, Economics, Money Supply, Energy Resources & more.


Quote:
freediver
Have you ever done any serious study of economics?


Quote:
perceptions_now
Do you mean, like all of those Economists, who had all that training and didn't pick, what is so far, at least the 2nd biggest Economic slowdown in the last 100 years?

If so, the answer is no!

However, I did have 40 years in the Financial sector, including Insurance, Banking & Finance.

And, yourself?

Out of curiosity, your own background is?
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #58 - Jun 26th, 2010 at 11:43pm
 
Quote:
If you had taken the time to go thru Bartlett's video's, particularly episodes 4 & 5, you would have got the answer to your coal question (which is a lot shorter than you think) and you may not be posing some of the queries that you are raising.


Wouldn't it have been easier for you to just say how long you think our coal resources will last? I am not going to watch dodgy internet videos to find out what you think just because you can't bring yourself to say it.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, your own background is?


I studied some economics at university, here and overseas, inlcuding the role that law and government plays in the economy. My main interest has been the choice between taxation vs trading as a mechanism for reducing GHG emissions.
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Re: The Population Debate
Reply #59 - Jun 27th, 2010 at 11:48am
 
Quote:
perseptions_now
Out of curiosity, your own background is?


Quote:
freediver
I studied some economics at university, here and overseas, inlcuding the role that law and government plays in the economy. My main interest has been the choice between taxation vs trading as a mechanism for reducing GHG emissions.


So, are you for reducing GHG and if so, why?

As you see it, what are the major factors involved in making GHG emissions worthy of your/our interest and how do you see this issue unfolding?
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