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The Future/s? (Read 49635 times)
perceptions_now
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #45 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 3:28pm
 
John Taylor: "Cash Is Now King, Worthless Or Not, So Buy Dollars."


In his latest must read letter, John Taylor picks up where Goldman left off a few days ago, and follows up on the implications of Keynes' savings paradox, which as explained by Goldman, and now by Taylor, has to do with the fact that with the entire world entering an austerity phase and thus cutting off public sources of capital to offset private sector contraction and deleveraging (as per the Current Account equality), the slowdown in economic growth is virtually assured.

It also explains why companies are hording cash.

The result is a massive schism in perceptions between micro and macro analysts: "the result is that the vast majority of the analysts that examine individual companies are bullish and almost all of the macro analysts are bearish, many like us, and dramatically so."

Further adding to the dire macro picture, "because nominal GDP is growing more slowly than the outstanding national debt is compounding, it is becoming a more oppressive weight on the “non-S&P” economy, tightening the financial position of small businesses and the consumer." Which leads Taylor to this simplistic and spot on conclusion: "if consumers build up their savings, we know what happens to retail sales and the GDP.

On top of this the money multiplier comes into play.

With the global banking system suffering under an extremely high load of worthless assets – whether recognized or not – and being forced to improve their capital allocation for risk by the Basel II and Basel III rules, banks must cut back the amount of credit that they make available to the economy.

The multiplier will force global economies to shrink in the years ahead. Cash is now king, worthless or not, so buy dollars." Brief, succinct and 100% spot on analysis.
Link -
http://www.zerohedge.com/article/john-taylor-cash-now-king-worthless-or-not-so-b...
===========
We are now enetring a new Paradigm, where the old rules will have to be adjusted or even completely re-written!



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It_is_the_Darkness
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #46 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 9:11pm
 
Here in Sydney, I held off buying a house because I knew something was fishy when they had the Royal Commission onto the Building Industry. Luckily I did hold off because suddenly, after the Syd-i-ney Olympics, the price of Housing became inflated. The Houses were going up so quick, that they have been proven to be crap and will come down fast too.
I then posted upon DiveOz, that Petrol will rise to $10 in a few years. A few months later, the CSIRO made a public statement that it expects a rise to $8. This was around when petrol was touching $2.

Then something strange happened. The Economy stopped inflating, Rudd pushed his stimulus package, Obama borrowed more money at 10% interest and somehow the economy dropped and levelled out.
...seems they held the floodwaters back afterall.

But now...I can see the leaks in the Dam Wall. Prices are starting to soar and it seems no-one has learn't from the first experience as everyone is going for broke for the 'quick cash grab'. This time, I think this is it.

Mugabe is apparently sitting comfortably on a chair watching as the Western World led Global Economy is starting to Inflate.
He is eating some popcorn with a shake of his head at Obama who is no Khofi Annan. "Welcome to the Jungle" he whispers, to coin a song by Guns & Roses.

My advice for the next 10 years: CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU BUY.
With that said, I guess the USA and especially the UK are gonna find it tough going especially when a good slice of their market worth is based upon Retail or Service Provider.
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #47 - Jul 16th, 2010 at 10:07pm
 
Quote:
FD, you are a bigger kook than I ever suspected.  On your model - idleness drives innovation - slaveholding societies would be the biggest innovators.


For that to be true you would have to show that slaveholding societies were more idle. Good luck. Also, you missed a subtle yet crucial aspect of my argument. It was not about societies, but about times.

Quote:
However, these factors all became interlocking  and became the old "Chicken & Egg" conumdrum, of which came first.


The decrease in population came first. There is copious historical evidence to prove this. Boom after boom came as a result of a decimation of the population that had nothing to do with economics. It may have become a full cycle lately with wealth contributing a decrease in birth rate. All of this is the exact opposite of your core argument - that population growth drives the economy. You seem to have taken a few headline quotes out of context and constructed an elaborate economic theory around them that flies in the face of reality and historical evidence.

Lets look at a modern example - China vs India. Both in very bad situations a while back. China took drastic moves to curb population. India keept breeding. The disparity we see today is all down to population - in the opposite way to how you claim it works. If China had kept breeding like in the past, they would be back to scavenging for locusts by now.

Quote:
That said, we are now at the crossroads of civilisation, as for the HUMAN POPULATION for first time is bumping into the glass ceiling that is the MAXIMUM LONG TERM SUSTAINABLE, given the FINITE ESSENTIAL RESOURCES of this planet!


There is no 'maximum long term sustainable'. It is a bit more subtle than that.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/population-sustainability.html#IPAT
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #48 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:19pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
However, these factors all became interlocking  and became the old "Chicken & Egg" conumdrum, of which came first.


Quote:
freediver
The decrease in population came first.


Time to wake up FD, the context of that statement & that conversation was/is about the last 200 years and particularly the last 80 years.

The discussion was/is about Population INCREASES, not decreases.

That said, I just came accross an article I posted in Yahoo on 30/08/2009, which put things into a reason context and I don't see any reason that the main trust is still correct.
=============
For the record
The following is a "Quick" snapshot of where we have been, where we are going and why! My apology for not being able to fit a 200 year history, into a few sentences!
I encourage comment, to agree or disagree & most importantly, I encourage you to propose solutions!

US Influence
Let me dwell for a moment, on the relationship between the USA & the Global Economy.

It has been suggested, in recent times, that the Global economy and in particular the BRIC countries, have De-coupled from the US and the influence of the US is now substantially lessened, on the World economy.

That said, the US economy, in GDP terms, is still greater than the next 3 countries GDP, combined.

For the Record, whilst some countries have room to manoeuvre slightly, they can not swim against the US tide and clearly, the current economic slowdown has put an end to the De-coupling suggestion, at this time!

Where are we Now

Let me put it this way, the US situation is as follows -
1) The Debt to GDP ratio is heading north quickly, to 100% and beyond.
2) Consumers have taken a massive hit, via falling housing equity, lower share values & reduced access to credit.
3) The economy is deleveraging and will do so, for some time to come. Derivatives is the other Elephant in the living room!
4) Two of the three major growth drivers (Oil & Population), have Peaked and are heading south.
5) Unemployment and Taxes are both rising.
6) Business Earnings are falling dramatically and bankruptcies are rising.
7) Tax revenues and consumption are both down.
8) Massive increases in Health and Social Security Costs, are on the way, again expanding government deficits.
9) Problems arising from Climate Change and Food Production are also set to interfere with future plans.
10) Share Markets first fell some 50% and have since increased some 50%, still leaving a massive reduction in total wealth.
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #49 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:21pm
 
How did we get here

There are seldom "Single Reasons or Silver Bullets" for events, such as these and this event is no different!

Going back in time, the last 200 years has seen 3 primary growth drivers -
1) Population Growth
2) Cheap & Abundant Energy (Oil)
3) Innovation

The Global Population attained 1 Billion around 1800, 2 Billion around 1930 and we have now reached over 6.5 Billion, having added 4.5 Billion in just 80 years.

Previous energy supplies Peaked out, as the Global Population expanded, with Wood & Whale Oil giving way to the Cheaper & more Abundant Crude Oil, as it started to come on stream, just on 150 years ago.

Man's Innovation has also expanded incredibly, over the last 200 years, as the Industrial & Information revolutions, increased Production persistently, via means such as the , Steam train, Aeroplane, Television, Medical technology, Nuclear fission, Computer & the Internet.

So, the scene was set and it culminated in the greatest economic boom in history, between 1995 and 2005! This was the "Perfect storm", for making money.

Finally, one of the oldest and most regular players came back into the game, when GREED joined the party, assuming the party would never end. Leveraging, via the Banking/Financial sector, went thru the roof, NINJA Loans came into being and the completely unregulated "Derivates Market", went into the Stratosphere, at over 100 times the Annual Global GDP!

However, there is a dilemma in the current economic/banking system; it REQUIRES exponential growth, within a finite environment!

The inevitable happened around 2005, two of the three major growth drivers (Population & Oil) Peaked and their combined effects had a profound influence in events. Population growth had already started to slow and the Baby Boomer generation had just started a 20 year transition, from their Peak Earning & Spending years, to being thrifty Retirees, before leaving us forever.

The slowing Population growth had already influenced the New US housing market, with construction in long term decline. However, the slowing Growth, combined with the Retiring Boomers, spilled over into Existing housing and that Bubble burst, as Demand slowed, forcing a vicious cycle, of falling housing values and rising Foreclosures, re-enforcing each other, in a race to oblivion.

Around the same time, Global Peak Oil, which had been long talked about, as a theory, became a reality. As Production effectively Peaked around 2005 and then started to fall, the Oil Price raced to $147 a barrel, and then, as the costs ballooned and economic reality set in, together with the perception of a faltering global economy, Oil Prices fell, as Demand also reduced.

The rest of the World joined the Party!

Many countries spent up, mainly by vastly increasing Debt and mortgaging the future, on a bet that the status Quo would return.
With Debt to GDP ratio's approaching 100% and in some cases more, the status quo will not return!
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perceptions_now
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #50 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:23pm
 
What of the Future/Conclusions?

Now that the calm EYE of the Hurricane, created by Trillions in "government money" has nearly passed over, that "Perfect Storm" is about to re-appear, this time as a Category 5 Financial "Black Swan Event"!
We are now in the final stages of proving that the current system is not working & is actually unworkable, over time.
Recent increases in leverage, in the financial sector and the Peaking of two of the three major Economic drivers (of the last 200 years), are now conspiring, to bring economic growth to a shuddering halt!

The great era of Population Growth is now ending, as costs increase & Revenues fall, in line with an Aging Population and a Slowing Population Growth!
The economic enabler of Cheap & Abundant Oil (Energy), is also ending, as Production levels start to fall and EROEI (Energy Return On Energy Invested) falls from an initial 100/1, to under 10/1 now and still falling! This greatly reduces the Profit motive on some new Production and therefore the incentive to proceed with some new fields, may also lessen?

What proceeds from there, may not be pretty, but nor will be the final judgement of historians and future generations. That said, it is likely that economic Growth will ratchet down, as will share Prices & the Oil price will ratchet up, over the next 3-4 years.

Innovation, is now the final frontier for economic sustainability, the "exponential Economic Growth Fairy" is no more, it died of "shortages of natural causes (oil)", in 2005, but in the long run, we are all dead.

The "fundamentals" are now changing!

What we do or don't do with this new paradigm, over the next 5-10, will set the course of humanity, for the next 200 years. Be advised, this new paradigm may lead back to the future, as Globalisation, gives way more and more to a local economy, unless a NEW Cheap & Abundant Energy source is put into Production, quickly.

That said, we must now go where there is no path and leave a new trail!

We can, the $64 Trillion question is, will we?

I would like to finish with the words of John Fitzgerald Kennedy, "Let us not seek the Republican answer or the Democratic answer, but the right answer. Let us not seek to fix the blame for the past. Let us accept our own responsibility for the future."

In short, irrespective of our Political or Economic leaning, we (globally) need to pull together, NOW, for the sake of our own future and that of future generations!

So, other than those few minor issues, I don't see any reason why share prices shouldn't go straight thru the roof, into the stratosphere??
Link -
http://au.messages.yahoo.com/news/politics/559385?p=1
=======
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #51 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:26pm
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
That said, we are now at the crossroads of civilisation, as for the HUMAN POPULATION for first time is bumping into the glass ceiling that is the MAXIMUM LONG TERM SUSTAINABLE, given the FINITE ESSENTIAL RESOURCES of this planet!


Quote:
freediver
There is no 'maximum long term sustainable'. It is a bit more subtle than that.
http://www.ozpolitic.com/articles/population-sustainability.html#IPAT


You may make it as subtle as you like, but there are limits and if we transgress them, we will find out that there are costs involved.

Btw, I suspect we are already transgressing some of those limits, now!
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #52 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:28pm
 
Quote:
Time to wake up FD, the context of that statement & that conversation was/is about the last 200 years and particularly the last 80 years.


So the rules have suddenly changed? What about the China and India example? Surely that should be included in the last 200 years?

Quote:
The discussion was/is about Population INCREASES, not decreases.


So you think that a rule that applies to population increases does not apply for decreases also?

Quote:
and I don't see any reason that the main trust is still correct


Neither do I.

Do you have any evidence, or even a sound theory, for your claim that population growth has been the driver of economic growth for 200 years? Can you at least explain what you mean by 'in back of'? Can you explain why there is in fact a negative correlation between population growth and economic growth in recent times? Why is it that, apart from China, the wealthiest countries have the lowest birth rates?
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #53 - Jul 17th, 2010 at 3:50pm
 
Interesting point FREEDIVER, regarding why it is that Wealthiest nations have the lesser population.

Of course if you follow the rule of thumb that having less children means a higher quality of living (wealth). Such good examples are Scandinavia, Switzerland and Australia.
Australia would have to be the best - John Howard putting all the women to work to reach an all-time 'Unemployment Rate' low. So Australian women were working more for little Johnny's fabulous Liberal Profit, rather than having sex ...and if they were having sex, it was just the peice of plastic sex that resulted in multiple relationships and no children.
Now these women are seeking various methods to catch up with having children in their latter years - like the 80% normal IVF or Cougaring young ignorant 'young' males who's higher sex drive leaves little for common sense.
Then you had Rudd with his "We are fairing far better than other Western Nations during these tough economic times".
Yeah well, we only have a population of 21-22 million (if you count those Ferals in the Forest too) so 'compared' to other nations, we have less mouths to feed. If we had the population of the UK or USA, our current Political System would crumble in day and we would be looking to  something else to lead the way for Australian Culture. We would be an absolute shambles in comparison to UK/USA.

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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #54 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 11:29am
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels.


Quote:
freediver
I think you got this bit wrong. It is technology that is the ultimate driver. The population boom was in response to this, rather than being the cause. In fact, through most of history the opposite was clearly true - economic growth happened when the population went down because, for a short period at least, people escaped the Malthusian trap.

We did not come up with all these inventions to prop up the population. People just died. But after the inventions came along we could support more people and the people bred to fill the new vaccuum. Fortunately they didn't breed fast enough to actually fill that gap, for a variety of reasons, all of which ultimately hang off the wealth that came from the inventions.

Furthermore, contrary to popular mythology, it was not need that drove invention, but idleness - the sort of idelness you get after a plague or war wiped out a big chunk of Europe's population and people didn't have to constantly scrounge for food any more.

==========

Quote:
perceptions_now
I say Neither, you say Niether?

The truth, most likely, is that
the dramatic Population increase
of the last 80 years or so
,
was because of and arose from a number of factors including Technology, an increased availability of cheap & abundant Energy, as well as purely social issues.

However, these factors all became interlocking  and became the old "Chicken & Egg" conumdrum, of which came first.

=========
Quote:
freediver
The decrease in population came first.



Quote:
perceptions_now
Time to wake up FD, the context of that statement & that conversation was/is about the last 200 years and particularly the last 80 years.

Quote:
freediver
So the rules have suddenly changed?

==========
What rules, FD?

The context of the statement and the discussion, was the last 200 years & the last 80 in particular, so where did the "decrease in population came first" comment come from, in context" and how did I change "what rules" or did you mean "your rules"???

Btw, as already stated, the population increase came about because of a number of factors, there was/is no silver bullet, as is the case in the declining population birth rate.
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #55 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 11:54am
 
Quote:
perceptions_now
and I don't see any reason that the main trust is still correct


Quote:
freediver
1) Neither do I.

2) Can you at least explain what you mean by 'in back of'?
3) Can you explain why there is in fact a negative correlation between population growth and economic growth in recent times?
Why is it that, apart from China, the wealthiest countries have the lowest birth rates?
4) Do you have any evidence, or even a sound theory, for your claim that population growth has been the driver of economic growth for 200 years?


1) Point taken!
In my opinion, the main trust of my article is still correct!
2) Try, "behind, pushing along everything else.
3) Ask most Politicians & Economists and they will go on about the benefits of Increased growth.
However, that MUST change, as a declining population, which will inevitably arrive, will mean a declining demand for all sorts of products.
We will have to start anew with our "Economic theory", because Exponential Growth of Population &/or the Economy, just is not possible.
There are many reasons that affect a countries birth rate, wealth is one, but not the only one.
Technology, an increased availability of cheap & abundant Energy, as well as a number of social issues, as just some of the other factors.

4) There is plenty, to show that Population Growth, in concert with cheap & abundant Energy & Technology Innovations have done exactly that, but I wouldn't want to spoil your chance of doing a little reading, for yourself.

I trust you are having a nive weekend!
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #56 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 12:08pm
 
Quote:
and how did I change "what rules" or did you mean "your rules"???


Natural rules. The economies actually work. You suggested that a principle that has always applied, and still applies today, can be ignored because your theory only applies to the last 200 years.

Quote:
Ask most Politicians & Economists and they will go on about the benefits of Increased growth.


Growth in what? My last economics lecturer warned of the dangers of increasing population, understood the reality of the Malthusian dillemma, and pointed out the role of population declines in stimulating economics booms in the past.

Quote:
We will have to start anew with our "Economic theory"


The only person who needs a new theory is you. You should start by understanding current economic theory before trying to replace it with your own.

Quote:
There is plenty, to show that Population Growth, in concert with cheap & abundant Energy & Technology Innovations have done exactly that, but I wouldn't want to spoil your chance of doing a little reading, for yourself.


I have done plenty of reading. It is time for you to come up with the goods. For someone who claims to have done a lot of reading on this issue you show remarkably little understanding of economics. Newspaper headlines are not the place to learn the basics. Would you get a medical degree by reading the paper? Would you learn how to build a bridge? What makes you think that you are so special, or economics is so simple, that you can understand it with such little effort?
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #57 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 1:00pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2010 at 12:08pm:
[quote]and how did I change "what rules" or did you mean "your rules"???


Quote:
freediver
Natural rules. The economies actually work. You suggested that a principle that has always applied, and still applies today, can be ignored because your theory only applies to the last 200 years.


That is just a load of -
Credible
Reliable
Abundant
Parardoxes

You simply got it out of context!

I have been talking about the Population explosion, Energy and the last 200 years, particularly the last 80!

YOU said Over-Population was our greatest problem and it is, but it is not our only problem, there are a number of things inputing into a once in history drama.

Whether you agree or disagree, with what I am saying, is up to you!

Have a nice day.
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #58 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 1:10pm
 
OK, lets go back to the beginning:

Quote:
But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels.


Are you claiming here that population growth caused economic growth over the last 200 years? I don't see how this is out of context. You are just wrong. Neither evidence nor logic backs you up.
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Re: The Future/s?
Reply #59 - Jul 18th, 2010 at 2:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 18th, 2010 at 1:10pm:
OK, lets go back to the beginning:

Quote:
But, in back of everything over the last 200 years particularly, has been the steady and un-relenting growth in population that has always been the major Driver or the engine of economic growth, at national and global levels.


Are you claiming here that population growth caused economic growth over the last 200 years? I don't see how this is out of context. You are just wrong. Neither evidence nor logic backs you up.

==========
FD,
I think the following says it all! A Population decrease, in the last 80-200 years???

If you want to go on about it, that is you choice!

Personally, I have better things to do!

===========
Quote:
perceptions_now
I say Neither, you say Niether?

The truth, most likely, is that the dramatic Population increase of the last 80 years or so, was because of and arose from a number of factors including Technology, an increased availability of cheap & abundant Energy, as well as purely social issues.
However, these factors all became interlocking  and became the old "Chicken & Egg" conumdrum, of which came first.
=========


Quote:
freediver
The decrease in population came first.

======
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