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More Public Money for Private Education (Read 28404 times)
longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #45 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:51am
 
||So doesnt those stats actually suggest that with 1/3 of kids in private schoosl, then they actually are taking the burden off public schools? ||

you'd think that was obvious, wouldnt you!
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #46 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:57am
 
Quote:
Why should struggling small businesses and people taxes pay for wealthy individual's children's Violin and Piano lessons?

Why should people expect the government to pay for this. Why are many people  not more concerned about the money going to better  services and education quailty etc for  all kids...


You think piano and violin lessons are the sole province of the wealthy? and as has already been stated and proven, every private school student SAVES the govt thousands of dollars every year in lower subsidies. if more parents went private the public system wouls have even more money! Why does this argument fail to gain any traction with you?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Equitist
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #47 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:01am
 

Cyberman wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:10am:
I have already shown where you made the assertion and assumed something because it fits your agenda.

Time to put your money where your mouth is Meekest. Failure to do so makes your assertion and assumption null and void


Settle down - all will be revealed in due course - meantime, I see that Buzz has totally debunked the '2/3 Private' claim...


buzzanddidj wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:15am:
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 21st, 2010 at 6:00pm:
...with 2/3 of students in private schools the comment is an undeniable fact of massive proportions. but when your thinking is defined soley by ideology then you come up with crap like this.


MEDIA RELEASE

[...]

Despite this, the majority of students in Australia still attend government schools with around two thirds of full-time students attending government schools in 2009
.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mediareleasesbyReleaseDate/130E6818E4A6A...

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #48 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:03am
 

Cyberman wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:13am:
Quote:
Oh, and whilst you are at it, kindly confirm the relative proportions of unionised v's non-unionised teachers in the private and public education sectors, ta!


Oh your a unionist.

Sorry I didn't pick that up. I will now expect you to not back any claim you have made and expect everything you say to be a lie.

That explains your tail-between-the-legs attitude


LOL...methinks that you will find that the level of unionisation is closely correlated with discrepancies in wages and conditions...
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Lamenting the shift in the Australian psyche, away from the egalitarian ideal of the fair-go - and the rise of short-sighted pollies, who worship the 'Growth Fairy' and seek to divide and conquer!
 
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #49 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:09am
 
Equitist wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:03am:
Cyberman wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:13am:
Quote:
Oh, and whilst you are at it, kindly confirm the relative proportions of unionised v's non-unionised teachers in the private and public education sectors, ta!


Oh your a unionist.

Sorry I didn't pick that up. I will now expect you to not back any claim you have made and expect everything you say to be a lie.

That explains your tail-between-the-legs attitude


LOL...methinks that you will find that the level of unionisation is closely correlated with discrepancies in wages and conditions...


so you are still going with the fantasy that the private sector pays less than the public sector in education?

your arguments are rarely that stupid.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Dsmithy70
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #50 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:10am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:57am:
Quote:
Why should struggling small businesses and people taxes pay for wealthy individual's children's Violin and Piano lessons?

Why should people expect the government to pay for this. Why are many people  not more concerned about the money going to better  services and education quailty etc for  all kids...


You think piano and violin lessons are the sole province of the wealthy? and as has already been stated and proven, every private school student SAVES the govt thousands of dollars every year in lower subsidies. if more parents went private the public system wouls have even more money! Why does this argument fail to gain any traction with you?


They don't save any money, it's the way the figures are broken down as per my post earlier.


Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 21st, 2010 at 10:55pm:
I think we need to look at the funding
Private schools are funded per student by the federal government and a good porportion of them are religious based so therefore get extra money for things like building,wages and maintinance from organisations which are tax exempt, whereas public school students are funded by state governments who get a lump some to cover everything.
Whilst governments can divide the lump sum per student at state schools to make it look good it doesnt take into account everything the money has to stretch to cover.
Private schools as I said can use all the federal money for student needs and get the extra money for the other things I mentioned before.
Also state governments are notorious for syphioning off money from 1 thing to another,to balance their state budgets.



Creative Accounting Wink
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #51 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:14am
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:10am:
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:57am:
Quote:
Why should struggling small businesses and people taxes pay for wealthy individual's children's Violin and Piano lessons?

Why should people expect the government to pay for this. Why are many people  not more concerned about the money going to better  services and education quailty etc for  all kids...


You think piano and violin lessons are the sole province of the wealthy? and as has already been stated and proven, every private school student SAVES the govt thousands of dollars every year in lower subsidies. if more parents went private the public system wouls have even more money! Why does this argument fail to gain any traction with you?


They don't save any money, it's the way the figures are broken down as per my post earlier.


Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 21st, 2010 at 10:55pm:
I think we need to look at the funding
Private schools are funded per student by the federal government and a good porportion of them are religious based so therefore get extra money for things like building,wages and maintinance from organisations which are tax exempt, whereas public school students are funded by state governments who get a lump some to cover everything.
Whilst governments can divide the lump sum per student at state schools to make it look good it doesnt take into account everything the money has to stretch to cover.
Private schools as I said can use all the federal money for student needs and get the extra money for the other things I mentioned before.
Also state governments are notorious for syphioning off money from 1 thing to another,to balance their state budgets.



Creative Accounting Wink



so in essence what you are saying is that int true footbru style you just refuse to believe the figures??  how convenient!

bottom line is quite simple: government pays a lot more to public students than private students thus saving the govt money. and it really IS that simple unless of course you have an ideology to defend and therefore need to dispute the figures like you have.
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Dsmithy70
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #52 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:28am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:14am:
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:10am:
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:57am:
Quote:
Why should struggling small businesses and people taxes pay for wealthy individual's children's Violin and Piano lessons?

Why should people expect the government to pay for this. Why are many people  not more concerned about the money going to better  services and education quailty etc for  all kids...


You think piano and violin lessons are the sole province of the wealthy? and as has already been stated and proven, every private school student SAVES the govt thousands of dollars every year in lower subsidies. if more parents went private the public system wouls have even more money! Why does this argument fail to gain any traction with you?


They don't save any money, it's the way the figures are broken down as per my post earlier.


Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 21st, 2010 at 10:55pm:
I think we need to look at the funding
Private schools are funded per student by the federal government and a good porportion of them are religious based so therefore get extra money for things like building,wages and maintinance from organisations which are tax exempt, whereas public school students are funded by state governments who get a lump some to cover everything.
Whilst governments can divide the lump sum per student at state schools to make it look good it doesnt take into account everything the money has to stretch to cover.
Private schools as I said can use all the federal money for student needs and get the extra money for the other things I mentioned before.
Also state governments are notorious for syphioning off money from 1 thing to another,to balance their state budgets.



Creative Accounting Wink



so in essence what you are saying is that int true footbru style you just refuse to believe the figures??  how convenient!

bottom line is quite simple: government pays a lot more to public students than private students thus saving the govt money. and it really IS that simple unless of course you have an ideology to defend and therefore need to dispute the figures like you have.


and in true SLR style your are ignoring valid points pertaining to the argument.
If you have to fund EVERY SINGLE THING it is going to cost more
If you have fund just students your costs will be lower.
Apples v Oranges
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #53 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:31am
 
OK, Ill take you on on this. the govt (fed and state) pays approx $10,000 per student per year in public schools and around $7,000 for a private school student. So where exactly are the extra expenses that you are talking about?
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #54 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:32am
 
since the argument is about GOVERNMENT funding, any other sources of income for private schools (fees, investment or donations) are irrelevent,
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #55 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:35am
 

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 10:51am:
||So doesnt those stats actually suggest that with 1/3 of kids in private schoosl, then they actually are taking the burden off public schools? ||

you'd think that was obvious, wouldnt you!


Not necessarily - in practice, the cost-effectiveness argument doesn't wash, given that Federal Govt education funding policies have so heavily favoured privately-schooled students over the past 15-odd years...

Thanks to Buzz, we already know that only about 1/3 (not 2/3, Longy!) of Aussie school students are in the private sector, now let us look at some of the Howardian Era stats...

Quote:
http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Publications/2009/JMcMorrowpaper2009.pdf


Updating the evidence: the Rudd Government’s intentions for schools


Jim McMorrow

December 2008


About the author:

Dr Jim McMorrow is an Honorary Adjunct Associate Professor, Faculty of Education and Social Work, University of Sydney, and a former senior policy adviser and public servant at Commonwealth and State levels.

This paper augments the analysis of funding trends and projections in Dr McMorrow’s previous report, Reviewing the evidence: Issues in Commonwealth funding of government and nongovernment schools in the Howard and Rudd years, Australian Education Union, August 2008.


This paper examines the Rudd Government’s funding decisions for schools since the May 2008 Budget and the analysis in my earlier report Reviewing the evidence: Issues in Commonwealth funding of government and non-government schools in the Howard and Rudd years (August, 2008).

It does so by examining the funding allocations for schools made through the two significant events that have occurred since the Budget: the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook (MYEFO) and, more significantly, the package of additional funding agreed with the States and Territories through the Council of Australia
Governments (COAG)1.

These decisions provide a clearer picture of the Rudd Government’s funding intentions for schools, at least for the next five years.


First, some context.

Reviewing the evidence examined the funding record of the Howard Government, which by 2007-08 provided $1.4 billion more in real terms, or 68%, for government schools than it allocated at the outset of its administration in 1995-96.

Over the same period, the Howard Government funded non-government schools in real terms by more than $3.8 billion, or 137%, than in 1995-96.

These decisions underpinned the slide in the proportion of total Commonwealth schools funding allocated to government schools from 43.1% in 1995-96 to 34.9% in 2007-082.

Just over one-third of the funding increase for non-government schools was due to enrolment growth of some 200,000 additional students in that sector by 2006. The remaining increases arose from ‘policy’ decisions such as the introduction of the Socio-Economic Status (SES) funding scheme in 2001, at least three separate arrangements for providing funding increases for Catholic systems over the period and, finally, the indexation of Commonwealth grants for schools by a measure of Average Government Schools Recurrent Cost (AGSRC)3.

The Howard Government’s policy decisions for schools lacked integrity and were deeply flawed: they provided the biggest increases in funding for independent schools with the highest resources; they lacked an explicit rationale for determining funding needs; and around 60% of non-government schools have had to be funded outside the SES criteria, under ‘funding maintained’ and ‘funding guaranteed’ arrangements4.

...


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Dsmithy70
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #56 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:36am
 
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:31am:
OK, Ill take you on on this. the govt (fed and state) pays approx $10,000 per student per year in public schools and around $7,000 for a private school student. So where exactly are the extra expenses that you are talking about?


I'm not posting them again I think they are scattered about 3 times through the thread.
As for other sources of income being irrelevent I must tell my accountant that when I do my tax this year.
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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #57 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:37am
 
and despite your so-called 'facts', funding for private schools remains 30% lower than public schools.

so where's the problem - other than an ideological one?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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longweekend58
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #58 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:39am
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:36am:
longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:31am:
OK, Ill take you on on this. the govt (fed and state) pays approx $10,000 per student per year in public schools and around $7,000 for a private school student. So where exactly are the extra expenses that you are talking about?


I'm not posting them again I think they are scattered about 3 times through the thread.
As for other sources of income being irrelevent I must tell my accountant that when I do my tax this year.



The argument is about GOVERNMENT funding of education. so you need to confine the essence of your argument to that. so what you seem to be saying is that you concur that governments fund public schools 50% higher than private schools.

so where is the problem - other than ideology?
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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."
 
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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #59 - Jul 22nd, 2010 at 11:43am
 
If private schools are funded by 30% less than public, then thats a good thing.

With 1/3 of students in private schools, this is an obvious saving for the public as a whole.  Even those that send their kids to private schools pay tax dollars too.

If the government didnt fund private schools then the price would increase at least three fold.  How many do you think will flock back to the already bulging public system, and then private education would really be for the elite.
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