Australian Politics Forum - More Public Money for Private Education

longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #60 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:47am

Verge wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:43am:

If private schools are funded by 30% less than public, then thats a good thing.

With 1/3 of students in private schools, this is an obvious saving for the public as a whole. Even those that send their kids to private schools pay tax dollars too.

If the government didnt fund private schools then the price would increase at least three fold. How many do you think will flock back to the already bulging public system, and then private education would really be for the elite.

that argument is well understood by all but the ideologically driven - including government.

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Equitist Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9632 NSW	Re: More Public Money for Private Education Reply #61 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:53am Sorry, the shifting excuses of you dogmatic right whingers do not stack up - not that you are big enough to admit it...
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Dsmithy70

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #62 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:55am

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:39am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:36am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:31am:

OK, Ill take you on on this. the govt (fed and state) pays approx $10,000 per student per year in public schools and around $7,000 for a private school student. So where exactly are the extra expenses that you are talking about?

I'm not posting them again I think they are scattered about 3 times through the thread.
As for other sources of income being irrelevent I must tell my accountant that when I do my tax this year.

The argument is about GOVERNMENT funding of education. so you need to confine the essence of your argument to that. so what you seem to be saying is that you concur that governments fund public schools 50% higher than private schools.

so where is the problem - other than ideology?

I suppose it is Longy, if you go back to the 1st page you will see that I would personally benefit from this if Tony wins and actually goes through with it.
However I believe I & my family will be better off in the long run if more lower income families are able to better themselves thru education therefore lowering crime & violence within my community & our society as a whole.
I'm happy paying paying the fee's I agreed to pay & music lessons I agreed to fund in the 1st place & seeing as we are talking about 1/3 of all students in the country we are talking BILLIONS(although no costings were announced along with the policy).
Maybe if that money was invested into public education it would dis-spell the idea that private education is better than public & our society/country really can only benefit from a more/better educated populace.

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #63 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:53am:

Sorry, the shifting excuses of you dogmatic right whingers do not stack up - not that you are big enough to admit it...

You might have a little credibility if you actually tried to support your position rather than just denigrate those who disagree with you (almost everyone). Your opposition to govt funding of private schools isnt an economic one at all. you oppose the very existance of private schools, or private hospitals or private anything. and you certainly oppose govts funding anything other then public utilities and services.

Your opposition is 100% ideological and therefore pretty irrelevant. That is why you avoid the economic argument because it is a very telling one!

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #64 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:05pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:55am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:39am:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:36am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:31am:

OK, Ill take you on on this. the govt (fed and state) pays approx $10,000 per student per year in public schools and around $7,000 for a private school student. So where exactly are the extra expenses that you are talking about?

I'm not posting them again I think they are scattered about 3 times through the thread.
As for other sources of income being irrelevent I must tell my accountant that when I do my tax this year.

The argument is about GOVERNMENT funding of education. so you need to confine the essence of your argument to that. so what you seem to be saying is that you concur that governments fund public schools 50% higher than private schools.

so where is the problem - other than ideology?

I suppose it is Longy, if you go back to the 1st page you will see that I would personally benefit from this if Tony wins and actually goes through with it.
However I believe I & my family will be better off in the long run if more lower income families are able to better themselves thru education therefore lowering crime & violence within my community & our society as a whole.
I'm happy paying paying the fee's I agreed to pay & music lessons I agreed to fund in the 1st place & seeing as we are talking about 1/3 of all students in the country we are talking BILLIONS(although no costings were announced along with the policy).
Maybe if that money was invested into public education it would dis-spell the idea that private education is better than public & our society/country really can only benefit from a more/better educated populace.

Now to step back from the podium...

I totally support public schools and believe they are woefully underfunded. But money is only one of the problems and not the most pressing. Teachers themselves say that the biggest problem is the curriculum which has them teaching pet care, bike maintenance, political correctness and so much other crap that little items like maths reading, writing and science etc gets lost. the single biggest reason private schools are more scuccessful than public is NOT the money - although that helps. it is the ability fo these schools to focus on the topics that actually help students succeed in life. like it or not, there are few jobs for people that know how to care for their pet but a whole lot more for those who can read write and count. when you go to university you find that the majority come from private schools - not because of the money but because of the education they received and the peer-pressure to succeed. The economic argument is perhaps the weakest of the public/private debate but it is the easiest to quantify. the public school system is in a very poor state. Money IS needed but without a fundamental shift in the left-leaning educational authorities NOTHING will improve it. the reason that low-income parents are going without and working 2 or 3 jobs to put their kids thru private school is that they recognise all of that and want their kids to have a better chance.

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Dsmithy70 Gold Member Offline ire futuis vobismetipsis Posts: 13147 Newy Gender:	Re: More Public Money for Private Education Reply #65 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:13pm It was discipline more than anything for me.
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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: More Public Money for Private Education Reply #66 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:16pm Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:13pm: It was discipline more than anything for me. disicipline that drove you to succeed? or what?
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Equitist

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #67 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:18pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am:

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:53am:

Sorry, the shifting excuses of you dogmatic right whingers do not stack up - not that you are big enough to admit it...

You might have a little credibility if you actually tried to support your position rather than just denigrate those who disagree with you (almost everyone). Your opposition to govt funding of private schools isnt an economic one at all. you oppose the very existance of private schools, or private hospitals or private anything. and you certainly oppose govts funding anything other then public utilities and services.

Your opposition is 100% ideological and therefore pretty irrelevant. That is why you avoid the economic argument because it is a very telling one!

Once again, Longy, you attempt to put extreme words in my mouth - kindly allow me to make my own statements, in my own words - ta!

Now, are you lot ready for some more independently-published reading material!?

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #68 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:20pm

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am:

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:53am:

Sorry, the shifting excuses of you dogmatic right whingers do not stack up - not that you are big enough to admit it...

You might have a little credibility if you actually tried to support your position rather than just denigrate those who disagree with you (almost everyone). Your opposition to govt funding of private schools isnt an economic one at all. you oppose the very existance of private schools, or private hospitals or private anything. and you certainly oppose govts funding anything other then public utilities and services.

Your opposition is 100% ideological and therefore pretty irrelevant. That is why you avoid the economic argument because it is a very telling one!

Once again, Longy, you attempt to put extreme words in my mouth - kindly allow me to make my own statements, in my own words - ta!

Now, are you lot ready for some more independently-published reading material!?

so do you deny that you are opposed to govt funding anything privately owned?

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Dsmithy70

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #69 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:28pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:16pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:13pm:

It was discipline more than anything for me.

disicipline that drove you to succeed? or what?

Sorry should have been more specific.
It was the discipline of the Private School that lead me to enroll my daughter.
They don't put up with any crap because they don't have too, you don't conform to their rules on your bike.
Funnily enough the kids seem to realise this or maybe it's the fact they are mostly together all through schooling(K to 12) & the school has had very little trouble.
I have questioned this as well as far as social interaction goes, but with her out of school sport & music it doesn't seem to be a problem.

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REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
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Equitist

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #70 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:31pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:20pm:

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:18pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:59am:

Equitist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 11:53am:

Sorry, the shifting excuses of you dogmatic right whingers do not stack up - not that you are big enough to admit it...

You might have a little credibility if you actually tried to support your position rather than just denigrate those who disagree with you (almost everyone). Your opposition to govt funding of private schools isnt an economic one at all. you oppose the very existance of private schools, or private hospitals or private anything. and you certainly oppose govts funding anything other then public utilities and services.

Your opposition is 100% ideological and therefore pretty irrelevant. That is why you avoid the economic argument because it is a very telling one!

Once again, Longy, you attempt to put extreme words in my mouth - kindly allow me to make my own statements, in my own words - ta!

Now, are you lot ready for some more independently-published reading material!?

so do you deny that you are opposed to govt funding anything privately owned?

Yes, and you know that to be the case - my arguments have always been about ensuring equitable, productive and cost-effective funding...

I have been at pains to highlight the fact that: the Libs have a bad habit of favouring and DISPROPORTIONATELY-funding and COUNTER-PRODUCTIVELY-funding inefficient pseudo-private duplication of existing essential public services and infrastructure...

Kindly refrain from falsely-twisting my arguments to suit your own dogmatic agenda!

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #71 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:31pm

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:28pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:16pm:

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:13pm:

It was discipline more than anything for me.

disicipline that drove you to succeed? or what?

Sorry should have been more specific.
It was the discipline of the Private School that lead me to enroll my daughter.
They don't put up with any crap because they don't have too, you don't conform to their rules on your bike.
Funnily enough the kids seem to realise this or maybe it's the fact they are mostly together all through schooling(K to 12) & the school has had very little trouble.
I have questioned this as well as far as social interaction goes, but with her out of school sport & music it doesn't seem to be a problem.

You have probably identified the major reason people opt to go private - the discipline. there are rules and you are expected to obey them. it is a good education for real life which as we all know has a lot of rules and we are expected to obey them. one of the big failings of public schools is the lack of discipline whereby you can hit the teacher and not get expelled. you can turn in your homework... or not. etc.

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #72 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:36pm

||Yes, and you know that to be the case - my arguments have always been about ensuring equitable, productive and cost-effective funding...

I have been at pains to highlight the fact that: the Libs have a bad habit of favouring and DISPROPORTIONATELY-funding and COUNTER-PRODUCTIVELY-funding pseudo-private funding of existing essential public services and infrastructure...

Kindly refrain from falsely-twisting my arguments to suit your dogmatic agenda!
||

I think I have identified your DOGMA quite accurately and I not the absense of anyone supporting you as further proof. you call govt fundning of private schools as

1) disproportionate. which is only true to the extent that private schools unfairly receive LESS than public schools. private school funding shoudl immediately increase by 50%!!

2) Counterproductive. Given that the 'product' of our schools should be well educated, successful socialble members of society then you just scored a massive 'own goal'. by that argument, public schools should be abolished as by all measurements of success, private schools come well ahead of public.

try again!

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longweekend58

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #73 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:40pm

||Yes, and you know that to be the case - my arguments have always been about ensuring equitable, productive and cost-effective funding... ||

I forgot about

3) Cost-effective. Well lets see how that works out... Private schools turn out a far better educated 'product' with historically vastly superior life outcomes for 30% less than the public alternative. It would seem that a truly cost effective solution woudl be to encourage ALL students into the private system. perhaps increase the govt funding to 100% of the public level perhaps?

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Equitist

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Re: More Public Money for Private Education
Reply #74 - Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:52pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:40pm:

||Yes, and you know that to be the case - my arguments have always been about ensuring equitable, productive and cost-effective funding... ||

I forgot about

3) Cost-effective. Well lets see how that works out... Private schools turn out a far better educated 'product' with historically vastly superior life outcomes for 30% less than the public alternative. It would seem that a truly cost effective solution woudl be to encourage ALL students into the private system. perhaps increase the govt funding to 100% of the public level perhaps?

Bollox!

I have previously shown you Year 12 educational outcome stats, which belie your assertion!

As usual, I see that you are keen to point to State Govt funding - and that you are yet to justify why the Federal Govt has been disproportionately-funding the private school sector from consolidated taxpayer revenue...

Meantime, I remind you that the non-govt schools have a dubious record for claiming that their students are of inherently and disproportionately-inferior educational stock - with increasingly-outrageous levels of claims for disability provisions in State-wide (and probably National) examinations...

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« Last Edit: Jul 22^nd, 2010 at 12:59pm by Equitist »

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