Sappho wrote on Aug 29^th, 2010 at 1:16pm:


Actually, I did say, by any & all means, precisely because I doubt that any volunatry effort will succeed, as shown by Climate Change.

And, I think that measures are already under way to have some actions done, but in such a way that there may be no choice. In any event, we are in the midst of playing the highest game of chance & bluff in human history & the stakes are all of our tomorrows.

I hope we win!

Quote:


How about windmills?

Can't you put another windmill in the gap? I think it is big enough.

That we don't need some silly government directed 'manahatten project' to find the answers. We already have the technology. We could go a long way without even chaning energy production methods. The only remaining barriers are political and economics.

Not that government funded research is a bad thing, just that it is silly to make it a precursor to action.

Quote:


It's the alternative.

Quote:


We have the technology. It is really quite simple to do. We don't just have one technology, we have lots of different technologies that could do the job.

freediver wrote on Sep 3^rd, 2010 at 10:31pm:


Where is/are the available technology/s that can deliver similar EROEI to the existing conventional Oil fields, produce it in such an abundant volume to offset a continuing Population growth for at least another 20-30 years and in a manner suitable for Power generation, Transport & the myriad of other uses, to offest the decline in Oil.

And, most importantly, can this or these new technologies deliver all of this, in a time frame that will prevent a Global Economic collapse, given that we need at least 10-20 years prior to Peak Oil and on a Global scale, for an effective changeover to be possible and that Oil Production already  Peak in 2005?

Btw, I gather from your non comment that you agree we don't have the Political &/or Economic will?

freediver wrote on Sep 4^th, 2010 at 9:53pm:


In physics, energy economics and ecological energetics, EROEI (energy returned on energy invested), ERoEI, or EROI (energy return on investment), is the ratio of the amount of usable energy acquired from a particular energy resource to the amount of energy expended to obtain that energy resource.

When the EROEI of a resource is equal to or lower than 1, that energy source becomes an "energy sink", and can no longer be used as a primary source of energy.

The economic influence of EROEI
High per-capita energy use has been considered desirable as it is associated with a high standard of living based on energy-intensive machines. A society will generally exploit the highest available EROEI energy sources first, as these provide the most energy for the least effort. With non-renewable sources, progressively lower EROEI sources are then used as the higher-quality ones are exhausted.

For example, when oil was originally discovered, it took on average one barrel of oil to find, extract, and process about 100 barrels of oil. That ratio has declined steadily over the last century to about three barrels gained for one barrel used up in the U.S. (and about ten for one in Saudi Arabia).[citation needed] [1] Currently (2006) the EROEI of wind energy in North America and Europe is about 20:1[2] which has driven its adoption.

Joseph Tainter[4] suggests that diminishing returns of the EROEI is a chief cause of the collapse of complex societies. Falling EROEI due to depletion of non-renewable resources also poses a difficult challenge for industrial economies.

EROEI under rapid growth
A related recent concern is energy cannibalism where energy technologies can have a limited growth rate if climate neutrality is demanded. Many energy technologies are capable of replacing significant volumes of fossil fuels and concomitant green house gas emissions.

Unfortunately, neither the enormous scale of the current fossil fuel energy system nor the necessary growth rate of these technologies is well understood within the limits imposed by the net energy produced for a growing industry.
Link -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EROEI
===========
Cost is what EROEI is about!

If it takes the equivalent of 1 barrel of oil (COST), to make a barrel of Oil (BENEFIT), then what is the Economic point? Which is the case, for example, in Corn Ethanol.

The cost at the point of source is not what people look at, it is the cost at the point of retail sale, that people are now starting to find objectionable!