Australian Politics Forum - howto dismantle Gillard government

# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: howto dismantle Gillard government Reply #30 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:28pm aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:13pm: ... Admirable effort in avoiding reality, bravo1 You live in a different reality? That explains a lot.
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# Gold Member Offline A fool is certain: an ignorant fool, absolutely so Posts: 2603	Re: howto dismantle Gillard government Reply #31 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:50pm Amadd wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 5:46pm: I must admit, it does sound like a bit of a dog for what we're able to get out of it. Bear in mind that 2GB isn't exactly unbiased.
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aussiefree2ride

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #32 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:58pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:28pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:13pm:

...
Admirable effort in avoiding reality, bravo1

You live in a different reality? That explains a lot.

Different enough to be aware of the difference between a wireless broadband system and a full on fibre optic one such as the ALP are shonking around with ATM.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #33 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:01pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 11:57am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 2:43pm:

... technological advances, that 'may' make fibre op obselete in less than 10 years...

Then again, Earth 'may' be invaded by giant carnivorous hamsters from space, which would render this conversation academic.

janko wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 3:04pm:

there is another competition, the wireless !

This is what some people who know about telecommunications had to sa about the fiction of wireless broadband:
Quote:

>> > > One of these days I'll find the Magic Wireless Fairy and whack it
>> > > against the rock of physics until it's good and dead...
> >
> > I'll join you, and then stomp on its head a few times just to make
> > sure it IS dead.
pointless, it's a zombie meme - it'll just re-animate.

It's something only the ignorant and those who sell wireless peddle.
Quote:

... that means,,,,, optic cable be useless.

How do you think the wireless towers are connected?

"Then again, Earth 'may' be invaded by giant carnivorous hamsters from space, which would render this conversation academic.

"

Absolutely....and crystal technology may be developed...or the Sun may send out a massive EMP burst that destroys all technology....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #34 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:02pm

freediver wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 3:56pm:

I suspect that while wireless may work for low volume like crackly phone calls, or for content where everyone is waching the same thing, if everyone wants to watch a different TV show or movie, in high quality, or communicate with each other over a high quality video link, you need a physical cable.

Something to do with bandwidth limits.

Fibre optics has been the best option for well over a decade now. Obviously it is possible that it could be replaced overnight, just as there was the possibility (now eventuating) that copper got replaced. Suggesting we hold off on fibre optics is like someone last century suggesting we stick with writing letters in case a new technology came along that was better than copper telephone lines.

The response to a question on wireless by one who knows far better that I:
Quote:

For the long answer, see Shannon-Hartley theorem plus various ACMA
spectrum planning documents.

I understand what Beazley was talking about when he said "vomit point"
(just when you think 'I'll vomit if I have to explain this one more
time, that's when people start to understand it).

Thought experiment: wireless broadband for all Sydney with (say) three
million households
Using the LTE data from slide 16 of this presentation:
http://www.nbnco.com.au/publications-and-announcements/latest-announcements/doc/...

10 users per cell with a good signal can expect approx 10 Mbps.

By that maths, and with the next technology, to serve 10 Mbps at peak
periods you'd need 300,000 cells in Sydney.

Note that I'm not getting into arguments like the "wireless will
overtake fibre" nostrum that's snared the ignorant among our
politicians; nor am I anywhere near familiar enough with spectrum
management to imagine whether you could set up 300k cells in Sydney with
what's available; nor am I considering the potential real estate costs
associated with 300,000 spectrum sites, nor the capital costs, nor
whether it's worth pulling fibre to 300k cells without bothering to go
the extra kilometre to connect the home directly...

(I have two mobile broadband devices, one 3 and one NextG. I'm not a
wireless luddite.)

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #35 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:16pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:58pm:

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:28pm:

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 1:13pm:

...
Admirable effort in avoiding reality, bravo1

You live in a different reality? That explains a lot.

Different enough to be aware of the difference between a wireless broadband system and a full on fibre optic one such as the ALP are shonking around with ATM.

It has been said that it's easier for the rich to live cheaply. They can afford shoes that will last a lifetime, while the poor must get by with ten times as many cheaper pairs, which cost more overall.

Do we want the option that's cheap in the short term, but expensive in the long run, or would we be better off paying more now for something that will save money later? I think it's a good use of my $5 per week.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #36 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:32pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 11:57am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 9^th, 2010 at 2:43pm:

... technological advances, that 'may' make fibre op obselete in less than 10 years...

Then again, Earth 'may' be invaded by giant carnivorous hamsters from space, which would render this conversation academic.

Quote:

... that means,,,,, optic cable be useless.

How do you think the wireless towers are connected?

But let's face it David....10 years ago, there was barely any Broadband in Australia(and what there was very very expensive,and satellite based), 20 years ago, there was almost no dial-up available outside Universities and 30 years ago there was NO internet at all in Australia....

Who knows what the next 10 years will bring.....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #37 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:49pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:32pm:

...
Who knows what the next 10 years will bring.....

Indeed. All we can do is our best, with the information and advice available. So far, the best advice I've seen indicates fibre as the way to go, long-term.
Quote:

>> ...
>> >> Say between Canberra and Sydney, how many towers,
>> >> how many relays, how much power for say 45Mb compared to one fibre?
>> >> Maybe a relay or two but all but built in to the cable. ...
> >
> > So, long term, fibre is the green alternative?
Cheaper, greener. Perhaps cheaper is the more important here.

Fibre is much cheaper and less energy intensive to make and far less
energy to run than copper. So far it has been the terminations and
optical transceivers that are more expensive. I imagine this will
change eventually. For instance if nearly every household in
Australia has one - it might help bring the price down.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #38 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:09pm

# wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:49pm:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 2:32pm:

...
Who knows what the next 10 years will bring.....

Indeed. All we can do is our best, with the information and advice available. So far, the best advice I've seen indicates fibre as the way to go, long-term.
Quote:

>> ...
>> >> Say between Canberra and Sydney, how many towers,
>> >> how many relays, how much power for say 45Mb compared to one fibre?
>> >> Maybe a relay or two but all but built in to the cable. ...
> >
> > So, long term, fibre is the green alternative?
Cheaper, greener. Perhaps cheaper is the more important here.

Fibre is much cheaper and less energy intensive to make and far less
energy to run than copper. So far it has been the terminations and
optical transceivers that are more expensive. I imagine this will
change eventually. For instance if nearly every household in
Australia has one - it might help bring the price down.

Oh i grant that for intercity cabling, Fibre Optic would be great....right now......but fibre to house is very expensive, complicated and time consuming....

AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available....

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"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #39 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:29pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:09pm:

...
Oh i grant that for intercity cabling, Fibre Optic would be great....right now......but fibre to house is very expensive, complicated and time consuming....

Repeated, because you apparently missed it first time, the response to a question on wireless by one who knows far better than I:
Quote:

For the long answer, see Shannon-Hartley theorem plus various ACMA
spectrum planning documents.

I understand what Beazley was talking about when he said "vomit point"
(just when you think 'I'll vomit if I have to explain this one more
time, that's when people start to understand it).

Thought experiment: wireless broadband for all Sydney with (say) three
million households
Using the LTE data from slide 16 of this presentation:
http://www.nbnco.com.au/publications-and-announcements/latest-announcements/doc/...

10 users per cell with a good signal can expect approx 10 Mbps.

By that maths, and with the next technology, to serve 10 Mbps at peak
periods you'd need 300,000 cells in Sydney.

Note that I'm not getting into arguments like the "wireless will
overtake fibre" nostrum that's snared the ignorant among our
politicians; nor am I anywhere near familiar enough with spectrum
management to imagine whether you could set up 300k cells in Sydney with
what's available; nor am I considering the potential real estate costs
associated with 300,000 spectrum sites, nor the capital costs, nor
whether it's worth pulling fibre to 300k cells without bothering to go
the extra kilometre to connect the home directly...

(I have two mobile broadband devices, one 3 and one NextG. I'm not a
wireless luddite.)

Quote:

AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available....

AND we may be invaded by carnivorous hamsters from space, but it seems unlikely.

Fibre is good, basic infrastructure. By all reports, it has a lot of potential for further development. Hence the tenfold increase in speed that caused so much mirth when announced before the election. Actually, that was about as surprising as the news that a Ferrari can go faster that a Model T Ford on the same road. Same infrastructure, more advanced technology.

Anything's possible but there's no realistic "better and cheaper alternative" in prospect. Aren't we better off going for the probable than the remotely possible?

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Life_goes_on Gold Member Offline Posts: 4772 400kms south of Yobsville, Qld Gender:	Re: howto dismantle Gillard government Reply #40 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:42pm Quote: AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available.... You do realise that there were people who used the very same argument against the roll out of the power grid?
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aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: howto dismantle Gillard government Reply #41 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:09pm Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:42pm: Quote: AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available.... You do realise that there were people who used the very same argument against the roll out of the power grid? Who?
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Life_goes_on

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #42 - Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:39pm

aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:09pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:42pm:

Quote:

AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available....

You do realise that there were people who used the very same argument against the roll out of the power grid?

Who?

What do you want me to do? name them?

There were sections that believed that given enough time for development, Nikola Tesla's method of distributing electricity could end up a more convenient and cheaper method than direct cabling.

Then there were others who believed that the existing gas and oil lighting was perfectly sufficient.

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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

Num num num num.

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Re: howto dismantle Gillard government
Reply #43 - Sep 13^th, 2010 at 2:01pm

For those who don't know, Tesla championed a wireless system of electricity distribution. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer
aussiefree2ride wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 8:09pm:

Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 4:42pm:

Quote:

AND, by the time it's completed..there may well be a better and cheaper alternative available....

You do realise that there were people who used the very same argument against the roll out of the power grid?

Who?

Looks like we need to start working on planetary defences against carnivorous hamsters. Roll Eyes

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aussiefree2ride Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3538	Re: howto dismantle Gillard government Reply #44 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 7:53pm I`ve got wireless broadband & it`s flawless.
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