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the technical case for the broadband network (Read 11395 times)
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #45 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 1:47pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 12:31pm:
...
I am qualified in Electronics.

And your experience in opto-electronics and photonics is?

Quote:
When a cable with a large number of copper pairs is broken they
are simply buzzed out with a multimeter & joined used a telephone
link for communication from the other end.

And there are no similar procedures for fibre?

Quote:
It's a lot harder to locate the right optic fiber & join it compared to copper.

If so, the real costs, in time and money, of repairing comparable cable would be?

Below is the response received by another Coalition shill, who tried to peddle similar nonsense in a more technically-inclined forum:
Quote:
You have just repeated your claim that having to splice ...
optical cables ... renders the NBN unachievable or represents some kind
of serious challenge.  It's just not.  It is standard reliable
technology that is used worldwide all the time.  Personally, I wouldn't
pretend for a minute that I could cost the NBN but I am certain that the
cost of fibre spicing kits isn't going to pop up and whack their budget
because they failed to heed the warnings of ...  Do
you really think they are that incompetent?

Apoplectic typos and identifying information deleted.  Smiley
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #46 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:29pm
 
Quote:
It's a lot harder to locate the right optic fiber & join it compared to copper.


Rubbish. The cables are layed in bundles with at least one multi-strand cable unused and available for maintance requirements. For minor single strand failures (within a single "cable"), the traffic on that strand is re-assigned to another within that cable via the transceivers. If the failures within one cable are enough to require replacement of the entire cable then the entire traffic for that cable is assigned to the spare and a new cable is installed with the new cable becoming the spare.
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qikvtec
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #47 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Sep 11th, 2010 at 4:03pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 11th, 2010 at 1:29pm:
freediver wrote on Sep 11th, 2010 at 12:53pm:
Quote:
Do you honestly expect a telecommunications company would maintain existing networks once the FOC is rolled out?


Sure. fibre won't replace mobile phones, which is the network used by USB modems, and won't work on your laptops, so that technology will continue to work.


I'm not talking about mobile solutions here, of course they will be maintained, and beggars belief you could think I was asserting otherwise.


So why do you think it matters if copper gets decommissioned? Do you think we should stick with inferior technology so that it forces us to maintain other inferior technology?


They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.


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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #48 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm
 
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #49 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:07pm
 
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.

You spent infinitely more than that procuring, maintaining and replacing generators to maintain power at "exchanges"
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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #50 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:11pm
 
Quote:
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.


Given fibre to every home, it would soon become prohibitively expensive to maintain the existing (and redundant) copper infrastructure.

What have we currently got sitting next to the existing copper as a backup? nothing.

At least with fibre there is redundancy that at least equals or exceeds the existing copper system and in the case of catastrophic failures you're no more rooted than what you would have been with copper.
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #51 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:17pm
 
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:07pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.

You spent infinitely more than that procuring, maintaining and replacing generators to maintain power at "exchanges"

And you want to perpetuate that waste? Insane!
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #52 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:28pm
 
[/color]6/45#50">Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:11pm:
Quote:
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.


Given fibre to every home, it would soon become prohibitively expensive to maintain the existing (and redundant) copper infrastructure.

What have we currently got sitting next to the existing copper as a backup? nothing.

[color=#ff0000]At least with fibre there is redundancy that at least equals or exceeds the existing copper system and in the case of catastrophic failures you're no more rooted than what you would have been with copper.


Can you describe the process of repairing both?

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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #53 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:28pm
 
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:17pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:07pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.

You spent infinitely more than that procuring, maintaining and replacing generators to maintain power at "exchanges"

And you want to perpetuate that waste? Insane!


Perpetuate what waste?
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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM
 
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #54 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:36pm
 
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:28pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:17pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:07pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.

You spent infinitely more than that procuring, maintaining and replacing generators to maintain power at "exchanges"

And you want to perpetuate that waste? Insane!


Perpetuate what waste?

Quote:
maintaining and replacing generators
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qikvtec
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #55 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:40pm
 
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:36pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:28pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:17pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:07pm:
# wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:06pm:
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 3:58pm:
...
They should leave the copper in place to A: Carry Power & B: provide a quick fix if it and the FOC sitting next to it is cut.

The logic of maintaining two networks for such nebulous benefit is questionable. The salvage value of the copper alone would be greater than that of the putative benefit.

You spent infinitely more than that procuring, maintaining and replacing generators to maintain power at "exchanges"

And you want to perpetuate that waste? Insane!


Perpetuate what waste?

Quote:
maintaining and replacing generators


There is no need to do that with a copper cable, it can carry power.
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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM
 
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #56 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:51pm
 
Quote:
There is no need to do that with a copper cable, it can carry power.


I can't see them wanting to throw 240v down the current comms copper system. With fibre the copper comms system would be reduntant.

And in regards to repairing fibre, it's just as easy to detect the location of break with fibre as it is with copper and despite popular opinion it's a straightforward job to repair a break. It's just a matter of using the dedicated tools for the job (fibre strippers, cutters and fusers).
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"You're just one lucky motherf-cker" - Someone, 5th February 2013

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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #57 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 5:13pm
 
Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:51pm:
Quote:
There is no need to do that with a copper cable, it can carry power.


I can't see them wanting to throw 240v down the current comms copper system. With fibre the copper comms system would be reduntant.

And in regards to repairing fibre, it's just as easy to detect the location of break with fibre as it is with copper and despite popular opinion it's a straightforward job to repair a break. It's just a matter of using the dedicated tools for the job (fibre strippers, cutters and fusers).


Would you need 240v down the copper wire?
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Politicians and Nappies need to be changed often and for the same reason.

One trouble with political jokes is that they often get elected.

Alan Joyce for PM
 
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #58 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 7:05pm
 
qikvtec wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 5:13pm:
Life_goes_on wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 4:51pm:
Quote:
There is no need to do that with a copper cable, it can carry power.


I can't see them wanting to throw 240v down the current comms copper system. With fibre the copper comms system would be reduntant.

And in regards to repairing fibre, it's just as easy to detect the location of break with fibre as it is with copper and despite popular opinion it's a straightforward job to repair a break. It's just a matter of using the dedicated tools for the job (fibre strippers, cutters and fusers).


Would you need 240v down the copper wire?

You evidently have not a clue.

You seem to be presenting putative past waste as justification for ongoing waste into the future.

Why on earth would we maintain a redundant network, in addition to the redundancy planned into the NBN? It can't be backup communications, mobiles and (outside mobile coverage areas) satellite phones serve that role these days. It can't be backup power, people who need it make their own arrangements.

This whole exchange is beginning to look like a troll.  Angry
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« Last Edit: Sep 12th, 2010 at 7:29pm by # »  
 
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Re: the technical case for the broadband network
Reply #59 - Sep 12th, 2010 at 7:27pm
 
Bobby. wrote on Sep 12th, 2010 at 12:31pm:
...
When a cable with a large number of copper pairs is broken they
are simply buzzed out with a multimeter & joined used a telephone
link for communication from the other end.
It's a lot harder to locate the right optic fiber & join it compared to copper.

I sent your assertion to someone with relevant experience. This is his reply (relevant bits in bold, my specific questions underlined):
Quote:
> Is there any substantial difference between fibre and copper, in
> relation to identifying the appropriate ends to join in a severed cable?

I spent several hours talking about just this topic with a
central-australian cabling contractor/specialist just the night before last.

His comment was that when there was a "major break" (i.e. all fribres are
broken in a multi-bundle) that the fibre was "way easier to manage, just
fiddly".

His logic went like this:
- When a backhoe goes through the cable, be it fibre or copper, you get (at
least) 2 breaks.
- The longer time that it takes to fuse single-mode fibre is easily
compensated for by the ease of identifying which fibre to repair.
- With fibre, you turn all the lights off, then on both ends, you light the
fibre to be re-joined.
  and then identifying the next pair takes "a roll of the thumb".
- There is a constant voice-link with techs managing equipment on both ends
of the broken link - this is the same regardless.
- You need to join/fuse the cable twice or three times - the same in both
cases.
- with copper, you need to find/keep joiners, with fibre, the fuser "needs
servicing after a couple of hundred joins".

He said he would rather fix a fibre backhaul than copper "any day".

> If so, would said difference add substantially to the cost or time
> involved in repairing a breach in cables of equivalent capacity?

When I pushed him on how long it takes to fuse a fibre in the middle of the
desert, he responded that it took between 5 and 30 minutes depending on "how
the fibre feels" (his quote).

He stated that he has experience completely re-fusing a "back-hoe'd 144-core
armored sub-T cable" (with 3-4 people on the job) in about 24 hours.
He then hurried on to say that this was the total time on-site, and that the
majority of service was recoverred within 45 minutes of unearthing the
breaks (even though this added about 2 hours to the total on-site time
decause of double handling the 5 or 6 active fibres).

Further to this - just how many copper pairs would you need to have to get
the equivalent capacity of 144-core single-mode fibre? (given that these
days, even without DWDM (which ALL the backhaul telco's use) 144 cores is
close to 1.5 TERRabits/second - and DWDM will multiply that by 64, 138 or
256 depending on the vendor/model.)

How much copper cable would be needed to get even 144Gbps? I am thinking
that we are talking in the order of a 500-pair bundle or more - over 1000
wires to join. each one requiring 2 dry-joiners, a patch, 4 crimps and
testing...

Given that this is example comes from just about the most remote and
inhospitable part of the country, I can't see that the numbers would be any
worse when working in less than 45C (and more than 5C over night) and close
to hot coffee/dinner).

Now, he *DID* have disparaging things to say about people with less
experience attempting to do this kind of major work. ("It's not the training
that matters - yes it is important - but fusing fibre is all about the FEEL
of it - my apprentices fuse hundreds of strands on the bench before I let
them do it by themselves in the field. It's about stress, confidence and
calm fingers.")

So the answers seem to be:
  • it's easy to find the right fibres if you turn out the lights;
  • it doesn't take anywhere near as long as the panic-merchants pretend and
  • it takes skill and practice, but it's not rocket surgery.

In this respect, it seems fibre is superior to copper. Again.
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