Australian Politics Forum - Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.

longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #90 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:20am

deepthought wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 5:14am:

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 13^th, 2010 at 10:20pm:

no thanks i am not funding some snotty nose elitist kid . . .

And therein lies the fundamental difference between the left and right.

While the right believe every child has the same entitlement from the public purse in a society which calls itself decent and equitable, the left still divide society into the worthy and the unworthy.

And inevitably decide the 'unworthy' (the 'snotty elitist') should pick up the bill for no material benefit themselves.

This class based ego-centric antagonism, generated from bitter envy and hatred, is anathema to the Liberal voter who seeks equality of entitlement for all Australians.

Perfectly said. well done!

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« Last Edit: Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:35am by longweekend58 »

AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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BobH

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #91 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:21am

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:17am:

bob that is utter crap and you know it ... entering into contracts , dealing with employers is hard enough to do let alone for the younger generation.. we fought for certain principles / conditions in our employment and the Liberals stripped it away with work choices hence why they are not in government now ...

a prime example of this liberal mentality is when i was made redundant after 9 + years due to GFC ... they said they didn't have to pay me long service leave .. utter shite it is paid pro rata after 7 years in knew this as i was older / wiser but some of the younger employees who were laid off at same time never knew their entitlements and left them open to being ripped off..

If it's young people you are worried about, how about looking at minimum wage laws, working hours laws, and all the work place restrictions that discourage employers from employing young people?

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longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #92 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:22am

BobH wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:03am:

I think the Liberal's philosophy tends to achieve true equality more than the Labor philosophy. The example of Work Choices, brought up in the previous post, illustrates that well. Those against Work Choices say they are for "worker's rights". But by enforcing "worker's rights" you are giving them something they didn't have to begin with. So it's not really a "right" at all. You have no inherit right not to be fired. Real rights, the ones that matter, are natural rights. Life, liberty and property don't exist because we have laws. We have laws because life, liberty and property have always existed, they are inherent in our human nature. If you want to go beyond that, if you want to give somebody a right they wouldn't naturally have without the government, you necessarily have to take rights away from others. Like in the case of "worker's rights", you necessarily have to take away certain freedoms from their employers. The people who gave them jobs to begin with. So what you're doing is tilting the playing field. Without enforced "worker's rights" what you have is a truly level playing field where employers and employees enter into consensual contracts for employment without outside inference from the government. That seems more equal than tilting the playing field for the unionised workers.

The same applies across the board. Liberals tend to believe in a level playing field whereas Labor consistently attempts to tilt the playing field for whatever reasons. Whether it's allegiance to the unions or a legitimate attempt to achieve more equal results. Note I said attempt, because while intentions may be good the results often aren't. I think it was the noble prize winning economist Milton Friedman who noted that societies who put equality ahead of freedom get neither while societies who put freedom first, get a great deal of both. And I think that's the major difference between the Liberals and Labor. While the Liberals aren't perfect on promoting liberty, they've definitely disappointed me, the core of their philosophical differences with Labor is the idea that freedom should put ahead of equality as a political goal. Labor doesn't think like that. They think force is a legitimate means of achieving equality and that's why they consistently tilt the playing field. Whether it's "worker's rights" or progressive taxation. The closest they've got recently to a truly level playing field proposal is the national broadband network. Although I personally believe something like that should be handled by the private sector. If they keep bringing ideas like that forward that might stay in power beyond this little stint as a coalition government.

Another very well written response. Congrats, Bob!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Binary Ninja Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 460	Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits. Reply #93 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:26am lol congrats on losing the election
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mellie

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #94 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:28am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:22am:

BobH wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:03am:

I think the Liberal's philosophy tends to achieve true equality more than the Labor philosophy. The example of Work Choices, brought up in the previous post, illustrates that well. Those against Work Choices say they are for "worker's rights". But by enforcing "worker's rights" you are giving them something they didn't have to begin with. So it's not really a "right" at all. You have no inherit right not to be fired. Real rights, the ones that matter, are natural rights. Life, liberty and property don't exist because we have laws. We have laws because life, liberty and property have always existed, they are inherent in our human nature. If you want to go beyond that, if you want to give somebody a right they wouldn't naturally have without the government, you necessarily have to take rights away from others. Like in the case of "worker's rights", you necessarily have to take away certain freedoms from their employers. The people who gave them jobs to begin with. So what you're doing is tilting the playing field. Without enforced "worker's rights" what you have is a truly level playing field where employers and employees enter into consensual contracts for employment without outside inference from the government. That seems more equal than tilting the playing field for the unionised workers.

The same applies across the board. Liberals tend to believe in a level playing field whereas Labor consistently attempts to tilt the playing field for whatever reasons. Whether it's allegiance to the unions or a legitimate attempt to achieve more equal results. Note I said attempt, because while intentions may be good the results often aren't. I think it was the noble prize winning economist Milton Friedman who noted that societies who put equality ahead of freedom get neither while societies who put freedom first, get a great deal of both. And I think that's the major difference between the Liberals and Labor. While the Liberals aren't perfect on promoting liberty, they've definitely disappointed me, the core of their philosophical differences with Labor is the idea that freedom should put ahead of equality as a political goal. Labor doesn't think like that. They think force is a legitimate means of achieving equality and that's why they consistently tilt the playing field. Whether it's "worker's rights" or progressive taxation. The closest they've got recently to a truly level playing field proposal is the national broadband network. Although I personally believe something like that should be handled by the private sector. If they keep bringing ideas like that forward that might stay in power beyond this little stint as a coalition government.

Another very well written response. Congrats, Bob!

Have to agree, well put BH

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longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #95 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:35am

mellie wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:28am:

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:22am:

BobH wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:03am:

I think the Liberal's philosophy tends to achieve true equality more than the Labor philosophy. The example of Work Choices, brought up in the previous post, illustrates that well. Those against Work Choices say they are for "worker's rights". But by enforcing "worker's rights" you are giving them something they didn't have to begin with. So it's not really a "right" at all. You have no inherit right not to be fired. Real rights, the ones that matter, are natural rights. Life, liberty and property don't exist because we have laws. We have laws because life, liberty and property have always existed, they are inherent in our human nature. If you want to go beyond that, if you want to give somebody a right they wouldn't naturally have without the government, you necessarily have to take rights away from others. Like in the case of "worker's rights", you necessarily have to take away certain freedoms from their employers. The people who gave them jobs to begin with. So what you're doing is tilting the playing field. Without enforced "worker's rights" what you have is a truly level playing field where employers and employees enter into consensual contracts for employment without outside inference from the government. That seems more equal than tilting the playing field for the unionised workers.

The same applies across the board. Liberals tend to believe in a level playing field whereas Labor consistently attempts to tilt the playing field for whatever reasons. Whether it's allegiance to the unions or a legitimate attempt to achieve more equal results. Note I said attempt, because while intentions may be good the results often aren't. I think it was the noble prize winning economist Milton Friedman who noted that societies who put equality ahead of freedom get neither while societies who put freedom first, get a great deal of both. And I think that's the major difference between the Liberals and Labor. While the Liberals aren't perfect on promoting liberty, they've definitely disappointed me, the core of their philosophical differences with Labor is the idea that freedom should put ahead of equality as a political goal. Labor doesn't think like that. They think force is a legitimate means of achieving equality and that's why they consistently tilt the playing field. Whether it's "worker's rights" or progressive taxation. The closest they've got recently to a truly level playing field proposal is the national broadband network. Although I personally believe something like that should be handled by the private sector. If they keep bringing ideas like that forward that might stay in power beyond this little stint as a coalition government.

Another very well written response. Congrats, Bob!

Have to agree, well put BH

The only society to genuinely create almost 100% equality was the USSR. Yet who would choose their equality over our 'inequality'?

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mozzaok

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #96 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:45am

deepthought wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 9:57pm:

Has anyone noticed how the private religious schools have all jumped on the labor BER scam and upgraded their schools. They couldn't get the freebies quick enough. They were quicker than a rat up a drain pipe to grab the handouts Wink

Weren't the funds offered to all schools?

It truly amazes me that the shallowness of this argument is not apparent to those who fall on the right, and far right of the political spectrum.

Instead of starting from the false premise that everyone deserves the same amount of government assistance, irrespective of personal circumstance, perhaps the people supporting the fact of these elitist schools receiving millions in government subsidies could give their reasons for believing it is fair and equitable to continue the current system, rather than introducing a new system with a sliding scale that would see more of the government money going to the needy rather than the greedy, and these elite schools cut off from receiving any subsidies.
Many private schools provide a good education, and try and maintain affordable fees, but while they are being held up against these elitist schools as points of comparison, they cannot compete, and using government assistance to help fund the increasing gap between what is offered by the elitist schools, and the rest, is something that I believe should be stopped.

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longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #97 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:54am

mozzaok wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 9:45am:

deepthought wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 10:22pm:

Sir lastnail wrote on Sep 12^th, 2010 at 9:57pm:

Has anyone noticed how the private religious schools have all jumped on the labor BER scam and upgraded their schools. They couldn't get the freebies quick enough. They were quicker than a rat up a drain pipe to grab the handouts Wink

Weren't the funds offered to all schools?

It truly amazes me that the shallowness of this argument is not apparent to those who fall on the right, and far right of the political spectrum.

Instead of starting from the false premise that everyone deserves the same amount of government assistance, irrespective of personal circumstance, perhaps the people supporting the fact of these elitist schools receiving millions in government subsidies could give their reasons for believing it is fair and equitable to continue the current system, rather than introducing a new system with a sliding scale that would see more of the government money going to the needy rather than the greedy, and these elite schools cut off from receiving any subsidies.
Many private schools provide a good education, and try and maintain affordable fees, but while they are being held up against these elitist schools as points of comparison, they cannot compete, and using government assistance to help fund the increasing gap between what is offered by the elitist schools, and the rest, is something that I believe should be stopped.

Yopur opposition is entirely ideological rather than practical.

Quote:

Instead of starting from the false premise that everyone deserves the same amount of government assistance

And here is the best example of that. What you are saying is that the group of people who pay vastly more in taxes should be excluded from any support from this govt for a BASIC entitlement - education. What is so 'false' about that? And even if you id take all the funds from elite private schools (about 20) how much do you think you'd save? about enough to buy toilet paper for the public schools and little more. The 'false assumption' is the one YOU make - that only some people are entitled to govt support and not everyone. It is a greedy and selfish attiutude that seeks to punish those who are successful. The vast array of welfare and other benefits are already excluded from the well-off and the few that remain are the ones that you people STILL love to complain about. Like it or not, the well-off in our community pay the lions share of the taxation, provide much of the employment and provided a great deal of charitable work. and the response of the commuity? TO HATE THEM. Truly wonderful.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Binary Ninja

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #98 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 12:39pm

Yes the funds should be stopped to the ELITE schools altogether due to the fact that a school can make a $4.7 million dollar profit (supposed to be non profit) and still receive over $9 million in funding from the government ...

The independent , the Catholic , the state schools never ever received this level of funds or never recorded a profit ....

It is okay or will be shortly because the current news on this SES funding is that these ELITE
schools are tipped to be removed from the scheme altogether as we are arguing here ...finally they have seen the sense ... the rest of the SES will be reviewed under the socio economic bracket like it was supposed to be and funds allocated appropriately they seem to have moved it up ...

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longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #99 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 1:40pm

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 12:39pm:

Yes the funds should be stopped to the ELITE schools altogether due to the fact that a school can make a $4.7 million dollar profit (supposed to be non profit) and still receive over $9 million in funding from the government ...

The independent , the Catholic , the state schools never ever received this level of funds or never recorded a profit ....

It is okay or will be shortly because the current news on this SES funding is that these ELITE
schools are tipped to be removed from the scheme altogether as we are arguing here ...finally they have seen the sense ... the rest of the SES will be reviewed under the socio economic bracket like it was supposed to be and funds allocated appropriately they seem to have moved it up ...

Never recorded a 'profit'? how can you be so sure? of course, you actually arent sure and are merely guessing. and non-profit organisations dont distribute profit. any surpluses are by law required to go back into the development of the business (or school).

But I especially love the implication that if you are successful as a business (eg mining) or as a non-profit(eg a school) you MUST be punished for it. It's the labor way. support the losers at the expense of the successful and dont forget to abuse tham at the same time.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Binary Ninja Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 460	Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits. Reply #100 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 2:44pm yep but it really doesn't matter now the ELITE schools will be dropped from the SES funding very soon ..... but they still will receive their private funding .. i just wish they could go back into the books and take the cash back of them and re-distribute to the needier schools
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buzzanddidj

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #101 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 2:54pm

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 12:39pm:

Yes the funds should be stopped to the ELITE schools altogether due to the fact that a school can make a $4.7 million dollar profit (supposed to be non profit) and still receive over $9 million in funding from the government ...

The independent , the Catholic , the state schools never ever received this level of funds or never recorded a profit ....

It is okay or will be shortly because the current news on this SES funding is that these

ELITE

schools are tipped to be removed from the scheme altogether as we are arguing here ...finally they have seen the sense ... the rest of the SES will be reviewed under the socio economic bracket like it was supposed to be and funds allocated appropriately they seem to have moved it up ...

I saw an article, some time back, on Sydney Church of England Girls Grammar School (SCEGGS) that they had SO much money flowing in from the Howard Liberal Government funding scheme they didn't know what to do with it

The school had started an investment division - and spending surpluses on prime properties around Sydney and playing the real estate speculation game

DESPITE this, the school had raised fees, in line with what the market would bear, above and beyond the CPI

Now THIS seems, to me, to be a case no valid need of additional Government grants, assistance or hand-outs

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« Last Edit: Sep 14^th, 2010 at 3:42pm by buzzanddidj »

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #102 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 3:03pm

I was educated at a private school so my knowledge of what the public schooling system is like is a little sheltered.

However there is a need for private schools to receive additional Government funding. The costs of running the school are often not covered by fees alone.

Remember that private schools are no different to public schools in that they are providing a service to the community in delivering well educated young people to get on in life and play a responsible role in our future.

I haven't made up my mind yet what school my little girl will attend - mainly because I don't know where we'll be living in 5 years - but I'd like to think I will have both private and public schools as options which are supported by my taxes.

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buzzanddidj

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #103 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 3:53pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 3:03pm:

However there is a need for private schools to receive additional Government funding. The costs of running the school are often not covered by fees alone.

As there are many that DON'T - the likes of King's College and SCEGGS - who are having a good laugh

St Michael's Catholic Primary School in Daylesford is but one private school that could well have done with one of the many vote buying millions thrown at the 'old boys' networks

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longweekend58

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Re: Elite Private Schools Rake In The Profits.
Reply #104 - Sep 14^th, 2010 at 4:03pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 2:54pm:

Binary Ninja wrote on Sep 14^th, 2010 at 12:39pm:

Yes the funds should be stopped to the ELITE schools altogether due to the fact that a school can make a $4.7 million dollar profit (supposed to be non profit) and still receive over $9 million in funding from the government ...

The independent , the Catholic , the state schools never ever received this level of funds or never recorded a profit ....

It is okay or will be shortly because the current news on this SES funding is that these

ELITE

schools are tipped to be removed from the scheme altogether as we are arguing here ...finally they have seen the sense ... the rest of the SES will be reviewed under the socio economic bracket like it was supposed to be and funds allocated appropriately they seem to have moved it up ...

I saw an article, some time back, on Sydney Church of England Girls Grammar School (SCEGGS) that they had SO much money flowing in from the Howard Liberal Government funding scheme they didn't know what to do with it

The school had started an investment division - and spending surpluses on prime properties around Sydney and playing the real estate speculation game

DESPITE this, the school had raised fees, in line with what the market would bear, above and beyond the CPI

Now THIS seems, to me, to be a case no valid need of additional Government grants, assistance or hand-outs

But if they had wasted the money you'd be ok with them getting it? This is the fundamental problem with your position - that it actively disciminates against success and competence. The better you are, the more effective you are the more we wil penalise you fir it? What kind of regime is that? Education is not some minor ancillary to life; it is a fundamental requirement and one the government is obligated to support regardless of income or success. there are a great number of govt programs that are not available to the successful and well-off. Will you not be happy until ONLY the poor get govt support? the whole 'government for the people' notion seems to escape you...

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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