Australian Politics Forum - The Carbon Tax

Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #15 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:33am

Hey Bates et al, I just reviewed the Libs' web-site and found some interesting pre-poll propaganda - which didn't get much airplay during the election campaign...

I'm sure you will be fascinated as am I...

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/08/12/Swan-walks-both-sides-of-the-st...

Quote:

Swan walks both sides of the street on carbon tax

12/08/10

Treasurer Wayne Swan tonight on the 7:30 Report tried to have it both ways on the question of a carbon tax.

At such a critical time in the lead up to the election the Treasurer, in one of his most confusing moments, has ruled in - and ruled out - a carbon tax all in the one sentence. Wayne Swan is treating Australians like mugs.

Hockey:

What was it? Was that yes or no? ... The fundamental question is: are you going to rule out a carbon tax in the next term of government? Yes or no?

Swan:

We have made our position very clear, we have ruled it out, we have to go back to the community and work out a way in which we can put a cap on carbon pollution, we’re going to do it in a consultative way and we’ll do it in the face of the opposition of the Liberal Party and the Greens again I’m sure.

Wayne Swan’s embarrassing failure to respond to a yes or no question succinctly has left the people of Australia confused and concerned.

Is Wayne Swan ruling out a carbon tax in the next term of government? Or has Wayne Swan said they’re going to use their Citizens Assembly to bring back a carbon tax?

Wayne Swan is walking both sides of the street. It’s too smart by half. Wayne Swan must clarify whether the Labor Party will or won’t introduce a carbon tax.

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/08/15/Gillard-and-Swan-at-odds-on-car...

Quote:

Gillard and Swan at odds on carbon tax

15/08/10

Julia Gillard and Wayne Swan are at odds over Labor’s plans to tax carbon pollution.

This morning on Meet the Press, Wayne Swan tried to rule out Labor imposing a price on carbon:

SWAN: Well certainly what we rejected is this hysterical allegation that somehow we are moving towards a carbon tax from the Liberals in their advertising. We certainly reject that. What we’ve said is that we will go back and seek to reconstruct a community consensus about how we deal with climate change. We have, we have said that we will review where we are with that in 2012. Ah, we have said that we will have a comprehensive re-evaluation of all our ... of, of, of our approaches. As you know, ah, the Liberals are responsible for defeating the carbon pollution reduction scheme. They voted it down, not once, but twice, but three times. We’ll have a look at where we’re going in 2012.

But just half an hour later on Channel 9, Ms Gillard confirmed that her Citizens’ Assembly is nothing more than a smoke-screen for the coming carbon tax:

GILLARD: Our climate change policy comes from someone who believes in climate change, comes from someone who wants to lead a national debate to make sure that we’ve got the community consensus we need for a carbon pollution reduction scheme and a cap on carbon pollution and a price mechanism to get there.

Mr Swan is deceiving the Australian public with his claims that Labor won’t implement a carbon tax.

Clearly, according to the Prime Minister herself, they will.

They are trying to have a bet each. But the reality is they are ducking and weaving and twisting and turning to try to avoid admitting their plans for a big new electricity tax.

Today's performances by Wayne Swan and Julia Gillard point to Labor’s dishonest plan to try to hide their carbon tax.

They want to try to slide into office relying on their ridiculed Citizens’ Assembly – before whacking higher electricity prices on mums and dads and farmers and pensioners. Labor’s plan for everything always resorts to a big new tax.

In contract, the Coalition will take real action on climate change that won’t increase the cost of living, through a $3.2 billion commitment to an emissions reduction fund and a 15,000 strong standing ‘Green Army’.

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Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #16 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:35am

Here's another one (check out the title): -

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2008/07/04/Carbon-tax-needs-to-fund-CO2-ca...

Quote:

Carbon tax needs to fund CO2 capture

04/07/08

Carbon capturing technology, known as geosequestration, is the only lasting solution to reducing greenhouse gas emissions from coal fired power stations, and should be a big ticket item in Garnaut's interim report on climate change.

On the eve of the release of Garnaut's report, Shadow Resources and Energy Minister David Johnston travelled to the Otway CRC for Greenhouse Gas Technologies in Victoria to be briefed on their successful geosequestration pilot project.

Senator Johnston said the carbon-capturing technology was Australia's only hope to significantly reduce greenhouse gas emissions while we still rely on coal as our main base load energy source.

''There is no point in placing a carbon tax on items such as electricity and petrol if the Rudd Government doesn't channel some of the income generated towards this very exciting and effective technology,'' Senator Johnston said.

Senator Johnston said the Otway project had already sequested 11,000 tonnes of CO2 into a depleted natural gas field in Victoria and had a target of 100,000 tonnes.

''This is safely storing CO2 that would otherwise be released into the atmosphere.''

Geosequestration, or carbon capture and geological storage is the capture of CO2 from major emission sources such as power stations and industrial facilities; and the transport; the injection; and the long-term storage of CO2 into deep, underground reservoirs, such as depleted oil and gas fields or saline aquifers that contain unusable, salty water.

''What the Rudd Government needs to come to grips with, is that charging everybody more for their energy needs through a carbon tax doesn't in itself reduce carbon emissions as Australians will not necessarily reduce their consumption, especially if they are compensated for increased costs,'' Senator Johnston said.

''But if we use the income generated to expand on what is considered a world-leading technology in geosequestration, we then have the ability to significantly eat into our carbon dioxide levels in this country.''

For more information about geosequestration go to www.co2crc.com.au

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Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #17 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:39am

If any of you were in any doubt as to the Lab's intentions, apparently the Libs weren't: -

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/08/20/Labor-great-big-new-tax.aspx

Quote:

Labor’s great big new tax on everything is coming back...it’s coming back...

20/08/10

"I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," – Julia Gillard,

The Australian, 20th August 2010

Finally, on the last day of the campaign, Julia Gillard has confirmed what everybody knew: a re-elected Labor Government will legislate for a price on carbon.

This great big new tax on everything will mean a higher cost of living for everyone, and will significantly raise electricity prices.

The fact that the Greens are likely to have the balance of power in the Senate due to the secret Labor-Green preference deal means that a Labor wins guarantees a carbon tax.

Ms Gillard and Mr Swan have been playing sneaky words games this election campaign, asserting that there won’t be a “carbon tax” – when the fact is, the so-called Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme is a carbon tax by another name.

Ms Gillard has also gone to the ludicrous lengths of promising to set up a “Citizens’ Assembly” to try and hide the fact that she wants to bring the CPRS back.

The truth is out – in Ms Gillard’s own words, a vote for Labor is a vote for the so-called Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

The only way to stop Labor’s great big new tax on everything is to vote for the Coalition tomorrow.

So, Bates, according to the Libs' own media releases: voters knew that they were voting for a carbon tax!?

But, were the Libs telling porkies then, or are they telling porkies now...

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/09/16/Gillard-walks-away-from-her-Car...

Quote:

Gillard walks away from her Carbon Tax promise

16/09/10

Julia Gillard today walked away from her election-eve promise to oppose a costly carbon tax on Australian house-holders

On the Friday before the election Ms Gillard stated categorically: “I rule out a carbon tax.”

(The Australian, 20 August 2010

)

But today, when asked by media, would she rule out a carbon tax, she blinked:

Gillard: Look, we, we’ve said we would work through options in good faith at the committee that I have formed involving of course the Greens … We want to work through options, have the discussions at that committee in good faith.

Journalist: So you are not ruling it out then?

Gillard: Well look ah, you know I just think the rule-in, rule-out games are a little bit silly.

Before the election, she unambiguously ruled out a carbon tax. Now, after the election, ruling in or ruling out a carbon tax is now “a little bit silly” according to the PM.

It now looks like Julia Gillard is opening the door to a plan by Labor’s partners, the Greens, for a carbon tax.

Now, after the election, it appears that Labor has a secret plan to back-flip and support the tax.

Before the election, Wayne Swan said: “what we rejected is this hysterical allegation that somehow we are moving towards a carbon tax” (Meet the Press, 15 August 2010).

Mr Swan also said: “We have made our position very clear, we have ruled it out” (7.30 Report, 12 August 2010).

Julia Gillard again claimed: “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead” (Channel 10, 16 August 2010).

The Prime Minister was today speaking at a sustainability media event. But it’s now clear she hasn’t been able to sustain her pre-election promises to rule out a carbon tax.

Hmmnnn....note that the 2 selectively-conflicting quotes both refer back to the same article in the Oz!

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« Last Edit: Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:44am by Equitist »

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #18 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:53am

longweekend58 wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:16am:

You seem to forget that the greens threatened to end uranium mining and BHP offered the carbon tax as a tradeoff. Energy companies support it - not from principle - but to end the uncertainity and to get their renewable energy sections on a firmer financial footing. Be assured that the reasons for these' changes of heart' are nothing whatsoever to do with principle, but rather expediency. If there were no Greens and the Liberal party had a firm majority none of these people would be clamoring for these ETS or carbon taxes.

"You seem to forget that the greens threatened to end uranium mining and BHP offered the carbon tax as a tradeoff"

Got any links to back your opinion?

"If there were no Greens and the Liberal party had a firm majority"

There are Greens ... and Liberals lost the election ... time to come to terms with this longweekend.

We live in a world where carbon pollution will no longer be free to dump the cost onto other sectors of the economy ... and the Australian society.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #19 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 10:17am

____ wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:11am:

gizmo_2655 wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 8:27am:

____ wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 7:39am:

mellie, do you think polluting our environment is a good thing ... also do you think burning coal creates pollution?

And what does 'pollution' have to do with a tax on Co2???

Because excess carbon, caused by human activity, has caused the planet's climate system to approach a tipping point ... where it will spin out of control.

Excessive carbon is a pollutant ... and the far right is addicted to the pollutant's cause ... coal !!!

At what global temperature will the mass amounts of methane under the permafrost start escaping into the climate system ... a gas 20 times heat trapping than carbon.

Does the far right know?

Carbon (whether 'excess' or natural) is a PLANT FOOD..not a pollutant...

More Co2 = Faster and more luxurious plant growth....

Maybe we should be concentrating on reducing Hydrogen Dioxide instead.....After all it's absolutely lethal in high concentration and is the most corrosive stuff on Earth....

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Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #20 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 10:22am

Update: -

Equitist wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 9:39am:

If any of you were in any doubt as to the Lab's intentions, apparently the Libs weren't: -

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/08/20/Labor-great-big-new-tax.aspx

Quote:

Labor’s great big new tax on everything is coming back...it’s coming back...

20/08/10

"I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," – Julia Gillard,

The Australian, 20th August 2010

Finally, on the last day of the campaign, Julia Gillard has confirmed what everybody knew: a re-elected Labor Government will legislate for a price on carbon.

This great big new tax on everything will mean a higher cost of living for everyone, and will significantly raise electricity prices.

The fact that the Greens are likely to have the balance of power in the Senate due to the secret Labor-Green preference deal means that a Labor wins guarantees a carbon tax.

Ms Gillard and Mr Swan have been playing sneaky words games this election campaign, asserting that there won’t be a “carbon tax” – when the fact is, the so-called Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme is a carbon tax by another name.

Ms Gillard has also gone to the ludicrous lengths of promising to set up a “Citizens’ Assembly” to try and hide the fact that she wants to bring the CPRS back.

The truth is out – in Ms Gillard’s own words, a vote for Labor is a vote for the so-called Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme.

The only way to stop Labor’s great big new tax on everything is to vote for the Coalition tomorrow.

So, Bates, according to the Libs' own media releases: voters knew that they were voting for a carbon tax!?

But, were the Libs telling porkies then, or are they telling porkies now...

http://www.liberal.org.au/Latest-News/2010/09/16/Gillard-walks-away-from-her-Car...

Quote:

Gillard walks away from her Carbon Tax promise

16/09/10

Julia Gillard today walked away from her election-eve promise to oppose a costly carbon tax on Australian house-holders

On the Friday before the election Ms Gillard stated categorically: “I rule out a carbon tax.”

(The Australian, 20 August 2010

)

But today, when asked by media, would she rule out a carbon tax, she blinked:

Gillard: Look, we, we’ve said we would work through options in good faith at the committee that I have formed involving of course the Greens … We want to work through options, have the discussions at that committee in good faith.

Journalist: So you are not ruling it out then?

Gillard: Well look ah, you know I just think the rule-in, rule-out games are a little bit silly.

Before the election, she unambiguously ruled out a carbon tax. Now, after the election, ruling in or ruling out a carbon tax is now “a little bit silly” according to the PM.

It now looks like Julia Gillard is opening the door to a plan by Labor’s partners, the Greens, for a carbon tax.

Now, after the election, it appears that Labor has a secret plan to back-flip and support the tax.

Before the election, Wayne Swan said: “what we rejected is this hysterical allegation that somehow we are moving towards a carbon tax” (Meet the Press, 15 August 2010).

Mr Swan also said: “We have made our position very clear, we have ruled it out” (7.30 Report, 12 August 2010).

Julia Gillard again claimed: “There will be no carbon tax under the government I lead” (Channel 10, 16 August 2010).

The Prime Minister was today speaking at a sustainability media event. But it’s now clear she hasn’t been able to sustain her pre-election promises to rule out a carbon tax.

Hmmnnn....note that the 2 selectively-conflicting quotes both refer back to the same article in the Oz!

This would appear to be the article quoted by the Libs - note that the conflicting quotes were contained in the same paragraph: -

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/julia-gillards-carbon-price-pro...

Quote:

Julia Gillard's carbon price promise

* Paul Kelly and Dennis Shanahan
* From: The Australian
* August 20, 2010 12:00AM

JULIA Gillard says she is prepared to legislate a carbon price in the next term.

It will be part of a bold series of reforms that include school funding, education and health.

In an election-eve interview with The Australian, the Prime Minister revealed she would view victory tomorrow as a mandate for a carbon price, provided the community was ready for this step.

"I don't rule out the possibility of legislating a Carbon Pollution Reduction Scheme, a market-based mechanism," she said of the next parliament. "I rule out a carbon tax."

This is the strongest message Ms Gillard has sent about action on carbon pricing.

While any carbon price would not be triggered until after the 2013 election, Ms Gillard would have two potential legislative partners next term - the Coalition or the Greens. She would legislate the carbon price next term if sufficient consensus existed.

Earlier this year, then prime minister Kevin Rudd ditched Labor's plans to introduce a carbon price for the next term after the bills failed to pass the Senate.

[...]

I, for one, am sick and tired of Lib lies and liars!!

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #21 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 10:29am

Carbon (whether 'excess' or natural) is a PLANT FOOD..not a pollutant...

_/_/_/

human caused carbon pollution is causing the acidification of the oceans ... destroying and collapsing the food chain.

the further acidification of the oceans will lead to the expelling of poison gas from these acidic oceans, into the atmosphere, killing land base life.

land base life includes humanity.

The far right's addiction to carbon pollution is putting life as we know it at risk.

The far right must face up to their addiction in the same way a heroin addict sooner or later faces up to their own addiction.

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gizmo_2655

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #22 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 10:41am

____ wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 10:29am:

Carbon (whether 'excess' or natural) is a PLANT FOOD..not a pollutant...

_/_/_/

human caused carbon pollution is causing the acidification of the oceans ... destroying and collapsing the food chain.

the further acidification of the oceans will lead to the expelling of poison gas from these acidic oceans, into the atmosphere, killing land base life.

land base life includes humanity.

The far right's addiction to carbon pollution is putting life as we know it at risk.

The far right must face up to their addiction in the same way a heroin addict sooner or later faces up to their own addiction.

Increased carbon dioxide in the oceans means increased phytoplankton growth which increases and strengthens the food chain...

And which particular 'poison gases' will the oceans expell due to acidification?????

And, just incidently, if the oceans ARE still absorbing Co2, that means the oceans are cooling, not heating.....

So much for oceanic heating...

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It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #23 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:32am

When families are struggling, already have high energy bills, are facing another interest rate hike onto their mortgage -

why exactly would anyone think it is a good idea to whack a new tax on their bills for carbon which will make them shell out more money per month?

Why does ANYONE think it is a good idea to force people to pay more??

Madness.

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #24 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:36am

An Ominous Warning on the
Effects of Ocean Acidification
A new study says the seas are acidifying ten times faster today than 55 million years ago when a mass extinction of marine species occurred. And, the study concludes, current changes in ocean chemistry due to the burning of fossil fuels may portend a new wave of die-offs.
by carl zimmer

The JOIDES Resolution looks like a bizarre hybrid of an oil rig and a cargo ship. It is, in fact, a research vessel that ocean scientists use to dig up sediment from the sea floor. In 2003, on a voyage to the southeastern Atlantic, scientists aboard the JOIDES Resolution brought up a particularly striking haul.

They had drilled down into sediment that had formed on the sea floor over the course of millions of years. The oldest sediment in the drill was white. It had been formed by the calcium carbonate shells of single-celled organisms — the same kind of material that makes up the White Cliffs of Dover. But when the scientists examined the sediment that had formed 55 million years ago, the color changed in a geological blink of an eye.

“In the middle of this white sediment, there’s this big plug of red clay,” says Andy Ridgwell, an earth scientist at the University of Bristol.

In other words, the vast clouds of shelled creatures in the deep oceans had virtually disappeared. Many scientists now agree that this change was caused by a drastic drop of the ocean’s pH level. The seawater became so corrosive that it ate away at the shells, along with other species with calcium carbonate in their bodies. It took hundreds of thousands of years for the oceans to recover from this crisis, and for the sea floor to turn from red back to white.

more here

http://e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2241

even the most obvious risks, and the far right choose to deny to try and mask their heroin like addiction to carbon pollution.

and what is even stranger is the far right is split.

some think human caused climate change is crap
&
some think action to slow carbon pollution is required.

No wonder the coalition lost the election ... the moderates in the party had the far right weighing them down.

So where do the coalition supporters stand

denial ... or reducing pollution ... could the party please find a common position !

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #25 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:48am

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:32am:

When families are struggling, already have high energy bills, are facing another interest rate hike onto their mortgage -

why exactly would anyone think it is a good idea to whack a new tax on their bills for carbon which will make them shell out more money per month?

Why does ANYONE think it is a good idea to force people to pay more??

Madness.

The price of electricity has been rising because of the spending required for infrastructure.

Now do we throw our taxes at the addictive carbon pollution past by spending on coal powered infrastructure ... just so we can replace it in the near future with the renewable energy.

Electricity is rising ... do we make this rise constructive by shifting to the non addictive Green economy, or do we hijack our selves and rejoin the addicted coalition and their carbon pollution reliance.

Either way will mean higher electricity costs ... yet the coalition's addictive path also equals massive increases to everyone's food bill.

Liberal/Nationals = Higher Food Costs For All Australians.

Carbon Pollution is pushing world agriculture towards collapse.

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Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #26 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 12:03pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 11:32am:

When families are struggling, already have high energy bills, are facing another interest rate hike onto their mortgage -

why exactly would anyone think it is a good idea to whack a new tax on their bills for carbon which will make them shell out more money per month?

Why does ANYONE think it is a good idea to force people to pay more??

Madness.

Remind us again, Android...what rate of GST you reckon that these same struggling families should be paying on all goods and services - not just electricity!?

Don't bother, here 'tis: -

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1284073410/3#3

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 10^th, 2010 at 10:03am:

...I do believe Australia's sales tax is far too low.
Australia has things ass-backwards. A high direct tax and low indirect tax.

I would like to see GST raise to 15-17% and a reshuffling of the tax bands on income tax to prevent brackcreep.

I'd also cap the top rate of tax at 40% so we can attract higher income earners to the country.

It does work. Mrs Thatcher did this in 1980 to great effect.

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Andrei.Hicks

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #27 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 12:07pm

You clearly don't understand the difference.

The GST suggestion is a re-jigging of the tax process.

The GST increase helps offset the reduction I would propose in direct taxation and an adjustment to the tax bands.

Where, pray tell, is the reduction on the carbon tax.

Please tell me why you think its a good idea to force struggling families to pay more for energy and not offer any concessions in other areas of their expense.

MY GST suggestion would see decreases in direct tax.

You'd have a carbon tax increase and a reduction in costs of errrrr......nowhere!!!

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Equitist

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Re: The Carbon Tax
Reply #28 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 12:19pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 12:07pm:

You clearly don't understand the difference.

The GST suggestion is a re-jigging of the tax process.

The GST increase helps offset the reduction I would propose in direct taxation and an adjustment to the tax bands.

Where, pray tell, is the reduction on the carbon tax.

Please tell me why you think its a good idea to force struggling families to pay more for energy and not offer any concessions in other areas of their expense.

MY GST suggestion would see decreases in direct tax.

You'd have a carbon tax increase and a reduction in costs of errrrr......nowhere!!!

On the contrary, Android, I quoted you in context and it is you, who are cherry-picking with intent to deceive - given that: almost every proposal to place a price on carbon, includes a level of monetary compensation to vulnerable and disadvantaged (i.e. genuinely struggling) households.

All other socio-economic groups typically represent a disproportionate part of the underlying problem, of excessive energy consumption (direct and indirect), that is being necessarily targeted by placing a price on carbon. Such groups typically have far greater choices.

These are also the same groups that have already benefited most over the past decade, from a plethora of effectively-exclusive WEALTHfare and tax measures (including reverse-means-tested cuts, subsidies, handouts, deductions, rebates, exemptions and concessions).

As a result, of those effectively-exclusive tax and transfer changes, some such households (purportedly including your own) have received nett annual increases in disposable incomes that exceed to total annual household incomes of those who rely upon welfare payments...

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Andrei.Hicks Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 23818 Carlsbad, CA Gender:	Re: The Carbon Tax Reply #29 - Sep 23^rd, 2010 at 12:28pm So we put a tax on bills and then you suggest we give people money to pay for the increased bills? Goodness me this is sounding like a good idea? Got any more good ones like that? Oh wait a minute you're probably suggesting we just help out the deadbeats again?
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