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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #105 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 9:17pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 8:34pm:

Jibreel,

The Prophet (pbuh) said: الناس مستوون كأسنان المشط

Just because one has authority over another does not mean they are not equal. There is equality and there is sameness, people are not all the same, but they are all equal in the broad sense of the term. Obviously one who has authority over another will enjoy different rights to them, but it doesn't mean they are more valuable or worthy to their creator, only their taqwa decides that.

As I've said, the Islamic definition of equality differs from what most understand it to mean. Equality between sexes is having the same rights regardless of your gender. Therefore women are not equal in Islam.

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 8:33pm:

Quote:

And BTW the "miswak' or 'light beating' defense is not from the Qur'an.

Can you explain this please Jibreel?

Sura 4:34 says nothing of a “light” beating. Yusuf Ali added it to his popular translation in parenthesis. Generally other translation do not use it. There are rules and limits (for example; hitting your wife in the face is not allowed), but the miswak defense is not from the hadith literature. Thats simply from commentary by some scholars. And the definition of “light beating” itself is dependant on what Muhammad saw as light. In sahih narrations he allowed men to beat their wives until they were “green” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #106 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm

Quote:

So Australia is not a society based on equality?

Australians value quality probably more than any other society on earth, to the point of looking down on someone because they achieve great things. It's part of our cultural baggage. I'm sure you are aware of this, seeing as you claim to have grown up with exposure to real Australian culture.

Quote:

I am not equal to politicians, police officers etc?

You can become a policeman or politician if you want. Unlike Islamic law, you will not be discriminated against based on sex or religion. That is what equality before the law means - not that the convict is equal to the president, but individuals have equal access to both positions. I am surprised you do not understand this, having grown up in western culture.

Quote:

As I've said, the Islamic definition of equality differs from what most understand it to mean.

What is the Islamic definition?

Quote:

There are rules and limits (for example; hitting your wife in the face is not allowed)

Is this because women are permitted to show their face in public?

Quote:

but the miswak defense is not from the hadith literature

Why do you refer to it as a defence? Because Muslims use it to 'defend' the public image of Sharia law?

Quote:

In sahih narrations he allowed men to beat their wives until they were “green” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Is this true Abu?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #107 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:11pm

Quote:

You can become a policeman or politician if you want. Unlike Islamic law, you will not be discriminated against based on sex or religion.

So it's not a society based on treating people equally, but on theoretically providing equal access for all to any position?

The simple fact is that most people will never be police officers or politicians, and don't say it's possible, because you know full well it's not, so in effect Australia is not a society based on equality, except in the theoretical sense.

Quote:

Is this because women are permitted to show their face in public?

Hitting anyone in the face is prohibited.

Nice example of how you try to twist everything to suit your agenda though.

Quote:

Is this true Abu?

I've never come across it before. Would need to investigate.

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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #108 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:23pm

Quote:

So it's not a society based on treating people equally, but on theoretically providing equal access for all to any position?

You judge people by their actions, not by their sex, sexuality, race, religion etc.

Quote:

The simple fact is that most people will never be police officers or politicians, and don't say it's possible, because you know full well it's not

This is true, but the reason is important. That is, it is not possible because they are not competent for the job, not because they are female, black, lesbian, non-Muslim etc. That is what equality before the law means Abu. It is commonly understood by westerners. Perhaps you have rejected western values without understanding them

Quote:

Hitting anyone in the face is prohibited.

So when you stone a little girl to death for cheating on the old man she was married off to, you bury her to her neck, leaving only the head exposed, but you are not allowed to hit her on the face?

Quote:

I've never come across it before. Would need to investigate.

I am very interested in this, given you avoidance of the soggy miswak issue and claims that wife beating is forbidden in Islam.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Consan.
Reply #109 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:45pm

The simple fact is that most people will never be police officers or politicians, and don't say it's possible, because you know full well it's not, so in effect Australia is not a society based on equality, except in the theoretical sense.

- Abu

As regards police officers .. why not? It's not as if the entrance exam results are high in Oz.

In fact.. back when I finished high school .. those students who FAILED their HSC went to Police College .. because they couldn't get into University.

Abu .. are you sure you're a born and bred Aussie?? I personally doubt that you are to be brutally honest.

If anything .. you sound like someone who has only been in Oz for a short time .. and I say this only because you're so VERY ignorant on many matters.

I'm beginning to think ignorance is at the core of your stupidity.

Oh and I just double checked the entry requirements for becoming a police officer today .. just as I thought .. not much in the way of HSC results at all.

Meh .. you sound just like my parents Abu .. they're migrants also!

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« Last Edit: Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:58pm by Lisa Jones »

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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #110 - Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:54pm

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm:

Quote:

As I've said, the Islamic definition of equality differs from what most understand it to mean.

What is the Islamic definition?

To be a good Muslim both sexes must follow Islam, thus they can both go to paradise by doing so. In that sense they are equal and this is what they define as “equality”. However what is required of both sexes is not the same, so in reality they are far from being equals.

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm:

Quote:

There are rules and limits (for example; hitting your wife in the face is not allowed)

Is this because women are permitted to show their face in public?

Muhammad instructed his followers not to do so in multiple narration. In my opinion, I would say “yes” this is the reason why he permitted beating women but not their faces.

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm:

Quote:

but the miswak defense is not from the hadith literature

Why do you refer to it as a defence? Because Muslims use it to 'defend' the public image of Sharia law?

Yes. Some claim it is only meant as a symbolic tap, but Islamic texts do not agree with this.

freediver wrote on Oct 12^th, 2010 at 10:02pm:

Quote:

In sahih narrations he allowed men to beat their wives until they were “green” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715)

Is this true Abu?

Here's a link to it:

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/072.sbt.html#007.072.715

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aikmann4 Gold Member Offline Posts: 2093 canberra	Re: Consan. Reply #111 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 2:02am how did this topic get so many posts
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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #112 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 5:46am

Quote:

I'm beginning to think ignorance is at the core of your stupidity.

The only stupidity here seems to be emanating from you.

Nowhere did I state anything about the entry requirements for becoming a police officer, I merely mentioned the impracticality of everyone being a police officer.

Honestly you should hold your tongue a little more, because you are an embarrassment to yourself.

Perhaps you should read your Bible more, especially where it tells women to be seen but not heard.

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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #113 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:19am Quote: In sahih narrations he allowed men to beat their wives until they were “green” (Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715) Abu, even though this is attributed to Bukhari it's quite obviously not true because it contradicts the Quran.
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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #114 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 10:57am

You're full of it, Jibreel. Where in this does it say Muhammad 'allowed' the beating?

Quote:

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Consan.
Reply #115 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 11:04am

The only stupidity here seems to be emanating from you.

Nowhere did I state anything about the entry requirements for becoming a police officer, I merely mentioned the impracticality of everyone being a police officer.

Honestly you should hold your tongue a little more, because you are an embarrassment to yourself.

Perhaps you should read your Bible more, especially where it tells women to be seen but not heard.

- Abu

In short .. you're backpeddling again. You know full well .. you were attacking Western culture wrt to equality etc (a mere cursory glance at the context of the discussion you were having with FD gives that away).

Your deep seated ignorance of western culture is slowly unravelling Abu ...

I merely picked up another aspect of your ignorance .. the fact that you are not at all familiar with the entry requirements for becoming a police officer in Oz (which are as follows: essentially you may be either male or female .. and low academic achievements/results are ok).

Abu .. you're getting too predictable ... and now you're getting boring.

Oh and as regards the last sentence which you've conveniently made up .. you know full well the Holy Bible promotes EQUALITY btwn the sexes.

If anything .. your last sentence tells me more about what YOU personally think/desire of women.

Not to worry .. it's all good my dear friend .. because .. I intend to be SEEN all over this forum

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« Last Edit: Oct 13^th, 2010 at 11:27am by Lisa Jones »

If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #116 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 11:32am Hitting anyone in the face is prohibited. - Abu Is that so Abu??? Then why are women STILL being openly and publicly hit with stones in Islamic countries .. hit with large stones in the face .. until they die .. RIGHT NOW .. IN THIS DAY AND AGE .. despite world wide condemnation???
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #117 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 11:38am I expect to find another backpeddle driven response when I return ... in typical Abu fasion .. sighs.
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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #118 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 6:45pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 13^th, 2010 at 10:57am:

You're full of it, Jibreel. Where in this does it say Muhammad 'allowed' the beating?

Quote:

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 715:
Narrated 'Ikrima:

Rifa'a divorced his wife whereupon 'AbdurRahman bin Az-Zubair Al-Qurazi married her. 'Aisha said that the lady (came), wearing a green veil (and complained to her (Aisha) of her husband and showed her a green spot on her skin caused by beating). It was the habit of ladies to support each other, so when Allah's Apostle came, 'Aisha said, "I have not seen any woman suffering as much as the believing women. Look! Her skin is greener than her clothes!" When 'AbdurRahman heard that his wife had gone to the Prophet, he came with his two sons from another wife. She said, "By Allah! I have done no wrong to him but he is impotent and is as useless to me as this," holding and showing the fringe of her garment, 'Abdur-Rahman said, "By Allah, O Allah's Apostle! She has told a lie! I am very strong and can satisfy her but she is disobedient and wants to go back to Rifa'a." Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you." Then the Prophet saw two boys with 'Abdur-Rahman and asked (him), "Are these your sons?" On that 'AbdurRahman said, "Yes." The Prophet said, "You claim what you claim (i.e.. that he is impotent)? But by Allah, these boys resemble him as a crow resembles a crow,"

Aisha is protesting and Muhammad says nothing, even to the abusive husband. In fact he sides with the abuser. If you don't think thats allowing abuse, what is? Muhammad is the equivalent of a judge in that situation. What sort of a judge would do that? His indifference towards her suffering proves that her beatings were within the bounds of Islamic law.

How about this one where Abu Bakr informs Muhammad he slapped Khadijah’s daughter, and he responds by laughing and allows the mother of believers to be hit by the companions?

Quote:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter ofKhadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (mav peace be upon him) laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) then got up went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) for anything he does not possess. Then he withdrew from them for a month or for twenty-nine days. Then this verse was revealed to him:" Prophet: Say to thy wives... for a mighty reward" (xxxiii. 28). He then went first to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said: I want to propound something to you, 'A'isha, but wish no hasty reply before you consult your parents. She said: Messenger of Allah, what is that? He (the Holy Prophet) recited to her the verse, whereupon she said: Is it about you that I should consult my parents, Messenger of Allah? Nay, I choose Allah, His Messenger, and the Last Abode; but I ask you not to tell any of your wives what I have said He replied: Not one of them will ask me without my informing her. God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy. (Sahih Muslim Book 009, Number 3506)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/009.smt.html#009.3506

And of course, I'm "full of it" and sahih narrations must be false when you don't like what they tell us.

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GH

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Re: Consan.
Reply #119 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 7:26pm

Qur'an (4:34) - "Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great."
Qur'an (38:44) - "And take in your hand a green branch and beat her with it, and do not break your oath..." Allah telling Job to beat his wife.

From the Hadith:
Bukhari (72:715) - A woman came to Muhammad and begged her to stop her husband from beating her. Her skin was bruised so badly that she it is described as being "greener" than the green veil she was wearing. Muhammad did not admonish her husband, but instead ordered her to return to him and submit to his sexual desires.

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Muslim (9:3506) - Muhammad's father-in-laws (Abu Bakr and Umar) amused him by slapping his wives (Aisha and Hafsa) for annoying him. According to the Hadith, the prophet of Islam laughed upon hearing this.

Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

Abu Dawud (2142) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man will not be asked as to why he beat his wife."

Abu Dawud (2126) - "A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" A Muslim man thinks his is getting a virgin, then finds out she is pregnant. Muhammad tells him to treat the woman as a sex slave and then flog her after she has delivered the child.

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