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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #120 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:32pm

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Aisha is protesting and Muhammad says nothing, even to the abusive husband. In fact he sides with the abuser. If you don't think thats allowing abuse, what is?

Do you even know what the word "abuse" means? It doesn't mean ضرب that's for sure.

Nowhere in that hadith is permission given to abuse anyone. And unless you're a qualified muhaddith, then you don't have even the slightest authority to speak on what is or isn't authentic by narration.

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How about this one where Abu Bakr informs Muhammad he slapped Khadijah’s daughter, and he responds by laughing and allows the mother of believers to be hit by the companions?

The companions were permitted to hit the mothers of the believers were they?

You obviously have absolutely no idea about the relationships between these people, otherwise you wouldn't peddle this rubbish.

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And of course, I'm "full of it"

Seems to be...

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and sahih narrations must be false when you don't like what they tell us.

As I said, unless you can produce your credentials as a muhaddith, better to be silent than speak out of turn about things which you obviously have no knowledge.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #121 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:45pm Hmm anyone else see a number of issues in the above response?? Seems Abu is totally unaware ... ahhh ... ignorance is such bliss.
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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #122 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:46pm And Abu .. you were totally hammered on the previous page. Lucky for you the page in this topic turned hey. Guess you're hoping people won't turn back to see ..
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Bobby. Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 106977 Melbourne Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #123 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:50pm I am learning a lot. Muhammad says it's ok to bash people up. Maybe Islam is a violent religion?
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freediver

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Re: Consan.
Reply #124 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:57pm

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To be a good Muslim both sexes must follow Islam, thus they can both go to paradise by doing so. In that sense they are equal and this is what they define as “equality”. However what is required of both sexes is not the same, so in reality they are far from being equals.

So, only equal in the afterlife, so long as they follow unequal rules on earth? Abu is this what you also mean when you claim equality?

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Abu, even though this is attributed to Bukhari it's quite obviously not true because it contradicts the Quran.

Can you elaborate please Annie?

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Allah's Apostle said, to her, "If that is your intention, then know that it is unlawful for you to remarry Rifa'a unless Abdur-Rahman has had sexual intercourse with you."

This is interesting Annie - Muhammed himself said this women must have sex with the man before she can go free. Also, I don't see anything in there where Muhammed forbids the man from beating her, even though that was apparently your intention with the quote. If anything it reinforces that Islam allows full-on wife beating.

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Abu Dawud (2141) - "Iyas bin ‘Abd Allah bin Abi Dhubab reported the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) as saying: Do not beat Allah’s handmaidens, but when ‘Umar came to the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) and said: Women have become emboldened towards their husbands, he (the Prophet) gave permission to beat them." At first, Muhammad forbade men from beating their wives, but he rescinded this once it was reported that women were becoming emboldened toward their husbands. Beatings are sometimes necessary to keep women in their place.

So this is abrogation? Muhammed initially forbade wife beating but changed his mind when the women got all uppity?

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Nowhere in that hadith is permission given to abuse anyone. And unless you're a qualified muhaddith, then you don't have even the slightest authority to speak on what is or isn't authentic by narration.

Can you offer your own view then Abu? It seems pretty clear that Islam allows far more than the soggy miswak stuff.

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As I said, unless you can produce your credentials as a muhaddith, better to be silent than speak out of turn about things which you obviously have no knowledge.

Come on Abu, surely you don't expect anyone to be satisfied with a response like that? That we are not entitled to think for ourselves? Is that really what Islam teaches you? Shoudn't you be setting the record straight, rather than trying to tell people they can't talk about it?

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Muhammad says it's ok to bash people up.

No bobby. Only women. And slaves. And non-Muslims. And people who break the myriad rules. And people who follow a slightly different form of Islam.

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Lisa Jones

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Re: Consan.
Reply #125 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 9:04pm

Bobby. wrote on Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:50pm:

I am learning a lot.
Muhammad says it's ok to bash people up.
Maybe Islam is a violent religion?

Do you even know what the word "violence" or "bash" means?

Unless you can produce your credentials as a muhaddith, better to be silent than speak out of turn about things which you obviously have no knowledge.

apologies to all .. but it had to be done.

sighs ...

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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #126 - Oct 13^th, 2010 at 9:50pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 13^th, 2010 at 8:32pm:

Quote:

Aisha is protesting and Muhammad says nothing, even to the abusive husband. In fact he sides with the abuser. If you don't think thats allowing abuse, what is?

Do you even know what the word "abuse" means? It doesn't mean ضرب that's for sure.

Turning your wifes skin “green” isn't abuse?

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Nowhere in that hadith is permission given to abuse anyone.

See above.

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And unless you're a qualified muhaddith, then you don't have even the slightest authority to speak on what is or isn't authentic by narration.

And you are?

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How about this one where Abu Bakr informs Muhammad he slapped Khadijah’s daughter, and he responds by laughing and allows the mother of believers to be hit by the companions?

The companions were permitted to hit the mothers of the believers were they?

You obviously have absolutely no idea about the relationships between these people, otherwise you wouldn't peddle this rubbish.

By all means, enlighten us on this “rubbish”.

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And of course, I'm "full of it"

Seems to be...

Oh the Irony.

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and sahih narrations must be false when you don't like what they tell us.

As I said, unless you can produce your credentials as a muhaddith, better to be silent than speak out of turn about things which you obviously have no knowledge.

And who are you, my father? What gives you more right than anyone else to comment on something?

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #127 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 5:41am

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Turning your wifes skin “green” isn't abuse?

Abuse means to use something in an incorrect manner, usually so it becomes damaged... I don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would commend such a thing. And the hadith does not in any way claim he did.

Also what does turning the skin green mean? I don't think it's very clear.

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And you are?

No, but contrary to you, I am not attempting to derive my own backyard fatwa from it either.

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By all means, enlighten us on this “rubbish”.

If you had even a fraction of the knowledge about Islam as you really should have to be commenting the way you are, then you'd know.

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And who are you, my father? What gives you more right than anyone else to comment on something?

There are different kinds of classifications other than Sahih, and there are more criteria for accepting the contents of a hadith than it merely being graded as Sahih. Just because something is in Sahih Bukhari doesn't make it a given part of Islam.

Nothing gives me more right to comment, but as I said above, I'm not attempting to derive my own backyard fatwa here.

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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #128 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 6:39am

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14^th, 2010 at 5:41am:

Also what does turning the skin green mean? I don't think it's very clear.

Haven't you ever seen a bruise? It means she was bruised by the beating her husband gave her.

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Abuse means to use something in an incorrect manner, usually so it becomes damaged...

The definition of a bruise:
(n) bruise, contusion (an injury that doesn't break the skin but results in some discoloration)
(v) bruise, contuse (injure the underlying soft tissue or bone of) "I bruised my knee"

http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=bruise

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I don't think the Prophet (pbuh) would commend such a thing. And the hadith does not in any way claim he did.

I never claimed he commended it, only that he allowed it on this occasion

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No, but contrary to you, I am not attempting to derive my own backyard fatwa from it either.

No different than when a Muslim quotes a narration in defense of Islam. Regardless, striking your wife is permitted and it is abhorrent to any sane minded individual. Muslims here are doing what Asra Nomani (a Muslim herself) refers to as the "4:34 dance".

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If you had even a fraction of the knowledge about Islam as you really should have to be commenting the way you are, then you'd know.

Nice ad hominem

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There are different kinds of classifications other than Sahih, and there are more criteria for accepting the contents of a hadith than it merely being graded as Sahih. Just because something is in Sahih Bukhari doesn't make it a given part of Islam.

I'm no scholar, but I'm not ignorant. I'm aware of all this, especially all the maudu and da`if narrations that Muslims like to peddle to kaafir.

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abu_rashid

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Re: Consan.
Reply #129 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 7:19am

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Haven't you ever seen a bruise? It means she was bruised by the beating her husband gave her.

Bruising does not necessitate abusing.

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I never claimed he commended it, only that he allowed it on this occasion

But there's nothing even in the hadith to indicate he allowed it. The woman was committing a crime against him also by slandering him, and so it seems they were considered to be "fair and square".

In fact the manner in which she was brought to the Prophet (pbuh) indicated she was going to be vindicated for her ordeal. But when it was discovered she was also guilty, then she lost her right to complain.

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No different than when a Muslim quotes a narration in defense of Islam.

If they attach the idea "It's therefore halal/haram to do such and such" to it, then no it isn't any different to what you've done I agree.

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Regardless, striking your wife is permitted

Yes it is, in certain circumstances.

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and it is abhorrent to any sane minded individual.

So you're saying it's permitted, yet it's abhorrent to any sane minded individual?

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Muslims here are doing what Asra Nomani (a Muslim herself) refers to as the "4:34 dance".

Which Muslims?

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Nice ad hominem

It's not wise to employ terms you clearly don't comprehend.

Nowhere in that statement did I attack you personally, I merely pointed out you have an obvious lack of knowledge, for your ignorant claim that the Prophet (pbuh) permitted the companions to slap the mothers of the believers.

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I'm no scholar, but I'm not ignorant.

Not doing a good job so far of convincing me of that.

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Annie Anthrax

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Re: Consan.
Reply #130 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 9:19am

FD,

This is from surah an-Nisa in the Quran:

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O you who have believed, it is not lawful for you to inherit women by compulsion. And do not make difficulties for them in order to take [back] part of what you gave them unless they commit a clear immorality. And live with them in kindness. For if you dislike them - perhaps you dislike a thing and Allah makes therein much good.

The Quran clearly states that a man must live with a woman in kindness - beating a woman until she's 'green' can hardly be called kindness in anyone's book.

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Lisa Jones Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 39047 Sydney Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #131 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 11:12am The previous page and this page are interesting to read. Why??? Because I've never seen Abu backpedal so desperately. I'm almost beginning to feel sorry for him now ...
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Annie Anthrax Gold Member Offline Take the plan, spin it sideways Posts: 7057 Gender:	Re: Consan. Reply #132 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 3:36pm Abu hasn't backpedalled once. He clarifies what he meant because you keep misunderstanding him. You should be thanking him - he's been way more patient than I would have in his place.
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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #133 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 5:15pm

abu_rashid wrote on Oct 14^th, 2010 at 7:19am:

Bruising does not necessitate abusing.

Earlier on you said “Abuse means to use something in an incorrect manner, usually so it becomes damaged”. The definition of “bruising” is enough to show that hitting causes damage and is certainly using the female body in an incorrect manner. And since when has beating your wife become non-abusive? Do Muslims have to attach a dual meaning to everything?

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But there's nothing even in the hadith to indicate he allowed it.

He said nothing of the abuse and he did not reprimand the husband for his actions. Therefore he allowed it. I'm sure you're aware that even the prophets silence on matters is important.

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The woman was committing a crime against him also by slandering him, and so it seems they were considered to be "fair and square".

In fact the manner in which she was brought to the Prophet (pbuh) indicated she was going to be vindicated for her ordeal. But when it was discovered she was also guilty, then she lost her right to complain.

I hope you realize that you have just justified abuse in Islam as a legitimate practice.

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Yes it is, in certain circumstances.

Yes, as you've already admitted above.

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If they attach the idea "It's therefore halal/haram to do such and such" to it, then no it isn't any different to what you've done I agree.

And you should also agree that the onus is on whoever disagrees with a sahih narration to prove its fault, and even one sahih narration is enough to form a part of shari'ah.

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So you're saying it's permitted, yet it's abhorrent to any sane minded individual?

Yes. I don't see any problems in that statement.

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Which Muslims?

Anyone who agrees that “Islam only permits a disciplinary reprimand with a toothstick”.

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It's not wise to employ terms you clearly don't comprehend.

Nowhere in that statement did I attack you personally, I merely pointed out you have an obvious lack of knowledge, for your ignorant claim that the Prophet (pbuh) permitted the companions to slap the mothers of the believers.

Its you who does not comprehend the term. Argumentum ad hominem is an "argument against the man".

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Not doing a good job so far of convincing me of that.

That's surprising.

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Jibreel

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Re: Consan.
Reply #134 - Oct 14^th, 2010 at 5:41pm

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 14^th, 2010 at 9:19am:

The Quran clearly states that a man must live with a woman in kindness - beating a woman until she's 'green' can hardly be called kindness in anyone's book.

The Qur'an also clearly states that a man can beat a women. Beating a women at all is hardly kindness or equality, but our definition of kindness or equality is irrelevant. Its Allah's and Muhammad's.

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 4^th, 2010 at 1:25pm:

I don't know where you get the "payment for young brides" thing. There is a dowry paid to the bride in an Islamic marriage which is hers to keep throughout the marriage or to help support her in case of a divorce. Incidentally, there's also a divorce payment that is agreed upon before the marriage which offers further security in the event of a marriage breakdown.

Are you also aware that if sexual intercourse has not taken place, then the payment must be returned to the man? Mahr is for all intents and purposes a payment for the use of your wifes vagina.

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Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) saying to the invokers of curse: Your account is with Allah. One of you must be a liar. You have now no right over this woman. 'He said: Messenger of Allah, what about my wealth (dower that I paid her at the time of marriage)? He said: You have no claim to wealth. If you tell the truth, it (dower) is the recompense for your having had the right to intercourse with her', and if you tell a lie against her, it is still more remote from you than she is. Zuhair said in his narration: Sufyan reported to us on the authority of 'Amr that he had heard Sa'id b Jubair saying: I heard Ibn Umar (Allah be pleased with them) saying that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) had said it. (Sahih Muslim Book 009, Number 3557)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/009.smt.html#009.3557

Annie Anthrax wrote on Oct 6^th, 2010 at 2:02pm:

A woman has to consent to a marriage, FD. She can't be forced, but even if she could I've already made it clear that I think both forced marriages and rape in any form are wrong.

Just so others are aware. The Islamic definition of "consent" is different. A virgins silence is her consent.

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Narrated Abu Haraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "A lady slave should not be given in marriage until she is consulted, and a virgin should not be given in marriage until her permission is granted." The people said, "How will she express her permission?" The Prophet said, "By keeping silent (when asked her consent)." Some people said, "If a man, by playing a trick, presents two false witnesses before the judge to testify that he has married a matron with her consent and the judge confirms his marriage, and the husband is sure that he has never married her (before), then such a marriage will be considered as a legal one and he may live with her as husband." (Sahih Bukhari Volume 9, Book 86, Number 100)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/086.sbt.html#009.086.100

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