Australian Politics Forum - wife beating in Islam

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #225 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 11:19pm freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 9:40pm: Yet you also promote a legal system that permits it. Don't you? Since he's been trying to argue that islamic doctrine forbids domestic abuse - no he doesn't.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #226 - Jul 21^st, 2013 at 11:23pm

Soren wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 9:41pm:

What's the deal with blowing yourself up for Allah and taking random others with you to the brothel in the sky?

Those random others go with him do they? Not a bad deal is it? Wouldn't you like to spend eternity in a brothel in the sky Soren? Just proves that islam is all about charity amrite?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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True Colours

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #227 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:37am

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 9:40pm:

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I am not a proponent of wife-beating, and I would tell anyone who listens not to do it

Yet you also promote a legal system that permits it. Don't you?

The fact is that Islam restricts and discourages it, but leaves it open as a last resort in case of marriage breakdown.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 9:40pm:

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what happens to the morale of men when society strips them of their masculinity, their roles as leaders and makes them society's bitch.

Does beating up women make you a man?

Not at all. But tell me this; if your child runs across a busy road do you or do you not smack him?

Smacking a child does not make a man a father. But a father needs to know when smacking a child might save his life.

Yeah, some people have great parenting skills, and are blessed with obedient children, and never need to smack their children - but there are other parents who are lame and have naughty kids - what should they do if their child runs across the road.

Not being allowed to ever smack that child might lead to a disaster.

There are some kids for whom, in some situations, the smack will be the only way to stop a disaster.

Why? Some dads just don't have the intellectual ability and skills to parent. Similarly, some husbands don't have the ability or skills to negotiate a marriage in some circumstances.

Divorce is a huge disaster for society, and just about anything that could prevent it should be considered.

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Divorce is bad for you

A staggering 40 per cent of marriages are now doomed to end in divorce, despite the bad press: divorce is bad for your health, bad for your purse and particularly bad for your children. In the course of researching a book I have written with Fiona Shackleton, a divorce lawyer, I have been continually surprised by the misery that divorce inflicts upon families - often more, it seems to me, than the misery of an unhappy marriage....

...Few people who embark on divorce proceedings realise how much they are likely to suffer financially...

...The real financial troubles will begin if the husband wants to remarry. When he has to support a second wife as well, he may be able to have his maintenance payments to his first wife and the children reduced, particularly when his second wife has a baby. If the payments to his first family are inadequate, that family may have to depend on benefits just to eat. Most two-parent families - 89 per cent - rely mainly on one or both parents' earnings; 66 per cent of single-parent families rely on social security benefits. Not surprisingly, within two or three years of a divorce, nearly 50 per cent of non- resident parents (mainly fathers) have lost touch with their children - 750,000 British children never see their fathers.

If a man's second wife has a good income, his first wife can ask the court to increase the maintenance paid for herself and the children because her former husband's own personal needs are shared with his second wife. Little wonder that many second marriages founder because the second wife believes she is working solely to support her husband's first wife and children.

Many couples who divorce later regret the decision. A small survey carried out in Bristol in 1988 among divorced people showed that 51 per cent of men and 29 per cent of women would have preferred to stay together. For their own health and the well-being of their children, they would have been better off still married.

A number of studies have shown that divorced people are more likely to contract chronic illnesses and die earlier than people who remain married. Recent research by Dr Kathleen Kiernan, of the Family Policies Study Centre...shows that the offspring of divorced couples do less well at school and are likely to be more aggressive and disobedient; those who live with step-parents suffer even more...

...Duncan Dormor, who works for the charity One Plus One: Marriage and Partnership Research, points out that people who have started divorce proceedings are often confused and do not really know why they are doing so. But divorce seems so much the norm that often when a couple hit the first rocky patch in their marriage, they see no other solution.

Three-quarters of divorces are still fault-based. In other words, to get a divorce one party blames the other for unreasonable behaviour, desertion or adultery...

...Women's expectations of marriage have changed dramatically in the last two decades...There is now less emphasis on their 'duties' in a marriage and more on rights and individual development, so women are less willing to sacrifice themselves to keep their marriages going. But if a marriage breaks down, the paradox is that women who are divorced are even more tied by children to the home - both economically and emotionally - than when they were married...

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/divorce-is-bad-for-you-try-again-many-couples-give-up-on-marriage-without-considering-the-likely-traumas-they-should-find-an-amicable-way-to-remain-partners-at-least-until-the-children-are-independent-says-olivia-timbs-1548687.html

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Why is it that every week 1000 men attempt suicide in Australia?

Because their wives beat them up? At least they're not doing it with a bomb vest in a crowded mosque. [/quote]Why are you avoiding/deflecting the question?

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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #228 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:53pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 11:19pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2013 at 9:40pm:

Yet you also promote a legal system that permits it. Don't you?

Since he's been trying to argue that islamic doctrine forbids domestic abuse - no he doesn't.

Is that what he has actually argued? I have heard a lot of strange arguments from him lately, including:
* never heard of it
* Muslims can't be expected to both themselves with such trivial details (presumably you find out after you install shariah law)
* Muslims slap each other's wives as gestures of jovialty, especially while discussing wife beating with Muhammed
* You must smack disobedient children, therefor you must smack disobedient wives
* Wife beating isn't abuse if it is with prescribed limits
* No limits are actually prescribed, therefor it is not possible to be outside prescribed limits, therefor it is not even possible to abuse your wife by beating her.
* Islam forbids surprise beatings.
* You have to get out of bed to beat your wife.
* You have to stop having sex with your wife to beat her (interestingly, this one mirrors movie rating standards that ban depictions of violence and sex at the same time)

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The fact is that Islam restricts and discourages it, but leaves it open as a last resort in case of marriage breakdown.

There you go Gandalf, does that count?

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Not at all. But tell me this; if your child runs across a busy road do you or do you not smack him?

Do you smack your wife if she disobeys you?

I would prefer children to fear getting run over than to fear a beating. If your child runs across the road it is probably because he is running away from you in fear of another beating. You cannot beat common sense into a child, only fear.

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Yeah, some people have great parenting skills, and are blessed with obedient children, and never need to smack their children - but there are other parents who are lame and have naughty kids - what should they do if their child runs across the road.

We are talking about wife beating here TC. How is this relevant? Do you have so little respect for your wife that you see punishing her the same way as punishing a young child?

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Why? Some dads just don't have the intellectual ability and skills to parent. Similarly, some husbands don't have the ability or skills to negotiate a marriage in some circumstances.

So beating your wife is a substitute for communication skills?

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Divorce is a huge disaster for society, and just about anything that could prevent it should be considered.

So wife beating is a cure for divorce? Weren't you just trying to excuse Islamic wife beating because it permits divorce as an option for the beaten wife?

BTW, what options are there for a beaten sex slave?

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Why are you avoiding/deflecting the question?

I was just trying to guess why you would introduce suicide as a defense for your support of wife beating. If you actually thought I knew the reason for suicide, I apologise for not having all the answers.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49445 At my desk.	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #229 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #230 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 1:46pm Quote: The fact is that Islam restricts and discourages it, but leaves it open as a last resort in case of marriage breakdown. freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:53pm: There you go Gandalf, does that count? "restricts" and "discourages" = "promotes"? Really FD?
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #231 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm: Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating? yes.
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Lionel Edriess Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 1932 Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #232 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 6:07pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm: freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm: Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating? yes. Why then, do they do it? Is it just that 'tiny minority' again?
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #233 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 7:26pm Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 6:07pm: Is it just that 'tiny minority' again? Absolutely. How many non-muslims beat their wives? Are you seriously suggesting this is a uniquely muslim problem - or even a disproportionately muslim problem?
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #234 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 7:26pm:

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 6:07pm:

Is it just that 'tiny minority' again?

Absolutely.

How many non-muslims beat their wives?

Are you seriously suggesting this is a uniquely muslim problem - or even a disproportionately muslim problem?

Noooooooo! I'm not even suggesting that female news-readers are at risk in Muslim societies.

Or even that Australian girls suffer harassment at Australian beaches.

You must be confusing me with someone else.

Or perhaps you consider me capable of taqqiya?

I'm well aware of the capacity of Western society to produce brutes - and all the twisted realisations of their misguided fantasy worlds.

But, at the same time, I'm not ignorant of the brutish atrocities committed in the name and teachings of Islam.

Check your own kitchen for dirt before you have the temerity to criticise mine.

Where are the world's refugees heading from - and where are they heading to? And why?

We may, as you say, on occasion beat our wives. And that, to our shame, is a fact.

The difference is, a happy man in Western society is one whose wife asks him for a smack. Cool

In Islam, there is no such understanding - even sharing a stoning has a different interpretation.

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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #235 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:19pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 1:46pm:

Quote:

The fact is that Islam restricts and discourages it, but leaves it open as a last resort in case of marriage breakdown.

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:53pm:

There you go Gandalf, does that count?

"restricts" and "discourages" = "promotes"? Really FD?

Yes really. This is what I said Gandalf: Yet you also promote a legal system that permits it. Don't you?

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating?

yes.

How do you explain all the "good quality" sources (or whatever it is you call it) that specifically permit and endorse wife beating? Is the story about Muhammed forbidding wife beating, then changing his mind when the women got all upitty a fake? Why do so many Islamic scholars say that Islam permits wife beating? The only disagreement appears to be the extent of wife beating allowed - ie what tools you are allowed to use to beat your wife with, and even these seem to have limited original sources.

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Are you seriously suggesting this is a uniquely muslim problem - or even a disproportionately muslim problem

Specifically permitting it by religious decree appears to be a uniquely Muslim problem. The stats appear to show that the reality of wife beating reflects that.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18789 Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #236 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:53pm polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm: freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm: Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating? yes. 4:34 has allah telling you to hit the bitch. www.quran.com/4/34
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #237 - Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:58pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating?

yes.

4:34 has allah telling you to hit the bitch.

www.quran.com/4/34

That's from the St. John's version! Not allowed!

Misinterpreted!

Grin

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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #238 - Jul 23^rd, 2013 at 11:16am

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 7:54pm:

Check your own kitchen for dirt before you have the temerity to criticise mine.

temerity? Wow thats rich, right after you sarcastically asked if muslim wife beaters were confined to a "tiny minority".

Domestic violence is an epidemic in most of the non-muslim world, mostly because of alcohol - which islam forbids incidentally. Of course I wouldn't stoop to your level and imply that it occurs in a majority of marriages - but there is little doubt that it is at least as big a problem - if not worse - than in the islamic world.

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:19pm:

How do you explain all the "good quality" sources (or whatever it is you call it) that specifically permit and endorse wife beating? Is the story about Muhammed forbidding wife beating, then changing his mind when the women got all upitty a fake?

Refutation of 'daraba' = beat:

http://www.islamawareness.net/Wife/beating1.html

http://imedaindia.ning.com/profiles/blogs/verse-4-34-the-meaning-of-the-word-dar...

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:19pm:

The stats appear to show that the reality of wife beating reflects that.

Oh really FD?? Which stats?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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shockresist

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #239 - Jul 23^rd, 2013 at 5:26pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 8:53pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 2:26pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2013 at 12:54pm:

Gandalf, do you believe that Islamic doctrine forbids wife beating?

yes.

4:34 has allah telling you to hit the bitch.

Just like the bible I guess.

Its also unfortunate you refer to female as bitches.

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Poll
Question: SHould wife-smacking be allowed
Yes - always 0 (0.0%) Yes - if she burns the toast 0 (0.0%) Only if she is really naughty 1 (33.3%) Only if she likes it 1 (33.3%) No - never ever under any circumstances 1 (33.3%) Total votes: 3 « Created by: True Colours on: Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:45pm »