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wife beating in Islam (Read 91427 times)

freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #255 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 5:55pm

Quote:

There you go again. I just finished explaining that the alternative translation makes perfect sense. Explain to me, if you can, how "separate/remove yourself (from your wife temporarily)" doesn't make sense in the context of trying to resolve a marriage conflict?

This is what I said Gandalf - nothing about the context of "resolving conflict with your wife", it is about the context in which these events happen:

How do you make sense of the story of Muhammed forbidding wife beating, then changing his mind when the women got all upitty? What else do you think Muhammed attempted to forbid? How do you make sense of the specific descriptions of wife beating, such as Muhammed's favourite wife describing the physical pain he caused her, or Muhammed's mates slapping her on the neck for being to annoying and everyone having a good laugh?

I post this over and over again. Every time you pretend to be blissfully unaware of it.

I would add to that the difficulty in the "real meaning" getting lost along the way - ie it does not make sense in the historical context either.

Quote:

Have they? I just gave you a significant body of opinion that diverges from what you assume is the "orthodox" view.

You mean two very dodgy looking blogs and one book?

Quote:

The wiki page makes it very clear that there is little consensus amongst scholars about what it means.

Which wiki page? The only disagreement I was aware of prior to your entry into the debate was what weapons you were allowed to beat your wife with, and it was very clear that attempts to restrict wife beating in this manner have little authoritative basis.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #256 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 6:23pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2013 at 6:27pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2013 at 5:37pm:

Assuming all the Quran translators are wrong (which they are not)

I'm pretty sure it was you who was criticising the translations earlier for including the word "lightly" after the word beat/strike/scourge. Now you don't seem to have any problem with that. So does "strike lightly" sound like what your typical good ol' drunken wife beater would do?

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 23^rd, 2013 at 5:37pm:

what does Idriboohunna mean gandalf, does it mean beat them?

In a literal sense it means 'beat them'. Thats not in dispute. But what the two articles I posted argued is that its not meant in a physical sense. The evidence is that elsewhere in the quran the same root word is used in a non-physical sense:

Quote:

Allah Almighty used the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 14:24 "Seest thou not how Allah sets (daraba) forth a parable? -- A goodly Word Like a goodly tree, Whose root is firmly fixed, And its branches (reach) To the heavens". "daraba" here meant "give an example". If I say in Arabic "daraba laka mathal", it means "give you an example".

Allah Almighty also used the word "darabtum", which is derived from the word "daraba" in Noble Verse 4:94, which mean to "go abroad" in the sake of Allah Almighty:

"O ye who believe! When ye go abroad (darabtum) In the cause of Allah, Investigate carefully, And say not to anyone Who offers you a salutation: 'Thou art none of a Believer!' Coveting the perishable good Of this life: with Allah Are profits and spoils abundant. Even thus were ye yourselves Before, till Allah conferred On you His favours: therefore Carefully investigate. For Allah is well aware Of all that ye do. (The Noble Quran, 4:94)"

So "daraba" literally means "beat", or "go abroad", or "give" but not in the sense to give something by hand, but rather to give or provide an example.

I have never had a problem with Quran.com, there have been a few muslims in this forum who object to the translations.
They put the word (lightly) in brackets because it does not appear in the arabic text.

Allah claims he perfected Islam in 5/3 yet for some reason muslims can never agree on anything from the niqab to Islamic terror, since there is a verse saying Safiyya will be a muslim if she wears the veil and a slave girl if she does not wear a veil it seems clear women had to cover their faces in Mohammad's time which was a setback for womens rights.
Quote:

Allah speaking- get on your knees when worshipping me or i will punish you for all eternity in the hellfire.

This day i have perfected your religion for you,completed my favour upon you,and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.
www.quran.com/5/3

Allah tells you the Quran is clear and without doubt, if that is the case then why do muslims always disagree on what it really says?
Quote:

Allah speaking to those silly enough to believe in fairy tales-

This is the book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those....
www.quran.com/2/2

By arguing there are other accepted translations with a different meaning are you saying there is doubt about the quran when allah says there is no doubt?

How can Islam be perfected as allah claims if muslims never agree on anything?

Allah the most merciful of those who show mercy says wife beating is halal.
www.quran.com/4/34

This guy refutes you nonsense about daraba which was also refuted in the wiki islam link,Idriboohunna is the female plural "beat them.
www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/ArabChristian30907.htm

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #257 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 6:35pm

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 5:55pm:

This is what I said Gandalf - nothing about the context of "resolving conflict with your wife", it is about the context in which these events happen:

I'm not talking about the hadeeth, I'm only talking about the quran. That is the most authoritative source of islamic jurisdiction. I haven't even looked at the chain of transmission of those hadeeth, and whether or not they are trustworthy.

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 5:55pm:

You mean two very dodgy looking blogs and one book?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An-Nisa,_34#Admonishing_and_separation_in_bed

Quote:

The 2007 translation The Sublime Quran by Laleh Bakhtiar translates iḍribūhunna not as 'beat them' but as 'go away from them'. The introduction to her translation discusses the linguistic and shari‘ah reasons in Arabic for understanding this verb in context. The Prophet never beat his wives, and his example from the Sunnah informs the interpretation of this verse. This interpretation is supported by the fact that some other verses, such as 4:101 which contains word darabtum (derivation from daraba), demonstrate also the interpretation of Arabic word daraba to have meaning 'going' or 'moving'

Quote:

The world-renowned and well-respected Islamic scholar Shaykh-ul-Islam Dr. Tahir-ul-Qadri has given the same translation in his translation of the Quran "Irfan-ul-Quran" ("(...)and (if they still do not improve) turn away from them, striking a temporary parting.(...)")

Quote:

In his book No god but God, University of Southern California scholar Reza Aslan, stated that false interpretations of the text have occurred because Koranic commentary "has been the exclusive domain of Muslim men."

no blogs there FD.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #258 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 6:52pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 6:23pm:

This guy refutes you nonsense about daraba which was also refuted in the wiki islam link,Idriboohunna is the female plural "beat them.

I had a brief look at the article. He claims that only the root word 'daraba' can have different meanings, and that 'Idriboohunna' - "beat her" can only mean that.

That may be a valid point, coming from who I assume is a native arabic speaker. Yet the arabic experts I quoted before seemingly don't see any intrinsic problems with 'Idriboohunna' changing from 'beat them' to 'separate from them'. I'm not being dogmatic one way or another, and its something I intend to investigate further.

One more interesting twist to this is the Marmaduke Pikthal translation that faithfreedom is only too happy to quote, uses the more vague term "scourge". It is claimed on the wiki page that this was intentionally used so as to avoid any reference to physical force (though there is no source for this claim). But it certainly is a curious term to use. Why not just say "beat them" if thats what it really means?

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #259 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 7:17pm

Quote:

The wiki page makes it very clear that there is little consensus amongst scholars about what it means.

I'm still not seeing it Gandalf. It gives a few examples of people who disagree, and even you concede that the "orthodox" view permits wife beating. One even blames "muslim men" for false interpretations. Does that include Muhammed and his mates?

Quote:

I'm not talking about the hadeeth, I'm only talking about the quran. That is the most authoritative source of islamic jurisdiction.

So what do you do if the most authoritative source is a bit ambiguous? Guess? Interpret it the way you would prefer it?

Does the Koran contain Muhammed's attempt to ban wife beating as well as him later changing his mind?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Yadda

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #260 - Jul 26^th, 2013 at 7:40pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 6:35pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 26^th, 2013 at 5:55pm:

This is what I said Gandalf - nothing about the context of "resolving conflict with your wife", it is about the context in which these events happen:

I'm not talking about the hadeeth, I'm only talking about

the quran. That is the most authoritative source of islamic jurisdiction.

I haven't even looked at the chain of transmission of those hadeeth, and whether or not they are trustworthy.

gandalf,

I think that you need to acknowledge,

that because of Mohammed's historic authority within his community [and because of the very clear endorsement of Mohammed's character AND HIS ACTIONS by Allah] that the sunna of Mohammed is a very close 2nd [to the Koran], as a most authoritative source for ISLAMIC jurisprudence.

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."

Koran 33.21

Quote:

A Beautiful Pattern of Conduct
.....It is a basic principle of Islam that a Muslim should follow the example of the Prophet Mohammad. This is stated in the Quran (Islam's holiest book) no less than 91 times. This is one of the most dangerous and misunderstood facts about Islam. How does a Muslim know how to be a Muslim? By following Mohammad as an example. A Muslim cannot read the Qur'an and discover how to be a Muslim. Not one of the "five pillars of Islam" is in the Qur'an. So it is almost impossible for someone to be a Muslim but not consider Mohammad an example to emulate.

What kind of example was Mohammad? He was kind to his fellow Muslims, and he was often cruel to non-Muslims, especially if they criticized Islam or hindered its relentless expansion. He was perhaps a typical seventh-century warlord — ordering assassinations of his enemies, torturing people for information, owning slaves and having sex with them, and killing enemies in mass executions — but his example is preserved in writing, and so is the Qur'anic encouragement to all devout Muslims to follow his example.
....Muslims are supposed to follow Mohammad's example, as it says more than seventy times in the Qur'an, Islam's most important holy book.

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2008/12/beautiful-pattern-of-conduct.html

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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True Colours

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #261 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 4:56pm

The word 'beating' is a mistranslation.

As it has been mentioned the word 'idrib' in Arabic has several meanings.

Freediver and his ilk - who don't speak Arabic at all - are convinced that it means 'beat' - even though it does not fit in very well with the context of the hadeeth that explains this part of the Quran.

Somebody has in this thread mentioned that it can mean 'leave' - which I don't believe fits in with the context of the verse and explanatory hadeeth.

A definition of the word 'idrib' that fits in best with the explanatory hadeeth is the word 'tap'.

'Idrib' is the word used in Arabic for tapping on a tambourine, or even tapping the buttons on a keyboard or typewriter. 'Idrib' is also the word used for tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention - or the chest as quoted previously by Freediver.

How do we know that 'tap' is the best fitting definition of the word 'idrib' in the Quran? Context! Ask any translator and they will tell you that context is all-important.

The verses of the Quran were revealed not only by themselves but also with prophetic explanations collected in hadeeth. The hadeeth are used to understand the meaning and context of the verses of the Quran.

What do we find in hadeeth in regards to this verse? The hadeeth tell us that the husband must not draw blood, must not cause swelling, must not damage the skin.

What kind of beating is that?

Obviously the definition best suited to the context is 'tap'.

However, the phrase 'tap them' just doesn't flow off the tongue readily in English, because in Western culture, men give their wives thrashings and beatings not tappings. So many translators use the word beat them, although it really dos not convey the most accurate meaning.

This all was revealed in a world in which there was a free-for-all in men beating their wives to impunity.

Islam came along and for the first time in history, men were forbidden to cause harm to their wives.

The first campaign against domestic violence was brought with Islam!

« Last Edit: Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:38pm by True Colours »

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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #262 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm

Quote:

Freediver and his ilk - who don't speak Arabic at all - are convinced that it means 'beat' - even though it does not fit in very well with the context of the hadeeth that explains this part of the Quran.

So are most Muslims apparently. You even spent a few posts in this thread trying to justify wife beating with your absurd moral equivalence arguments. I'll put the same questions to you that I put to Gandalf - his only response so far is that he has not read the relevant hadiths:

Are you suggesting that Muslims have mistranslated the word for a millenia? How do you make sense of the story of Muhammed forbidding wife beating, then changing his mind when the women got all upitty? What else do you think Muhammed attempted to forbid? How do you make sense of the specific descriptions of wife beating, such as Muhammed's favourite wife describing the physical pain he caused her, or Muhammed's mates slapping her on the neck for being to annoying and everyone having a good laugh?

Quote:

A definition of the word 'idrib' that fits in best with the explanatory hadeeth is the word 'tap'.

Ah yes, there's a word without ambiguity. Tap that bitch. Well done TC. Is the idea that the tapping eventually gets more annoying than the nagging? I can just imagine Muhammed the warmonger gently tapping his wife into submission. Tap tap tap. Tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap tap.

Quote:

'Idrib' is the word used in Arabic for tapping on a tambourine, or even tapping the buttons on a keyboard or typewriter.

Is that from the koran, or hadiths?

Quote:

'Idrib' is also the word used for tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention - or the chest as quoted previously by Freediver.

You mean this?

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission. Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Tap makes much more sense doesn't it? He tapped me on the shoulder, causing me pain. Then he gently caressed my hair, causing it to rip out with chunks of skin. Then he lovingly massaged my flesh, causing it to turn a delightful green colour that matched my dress (without causing swelling, bleeding or other damage).

Quote:

How do we know that 'tap' is the best fitting definition of the word 'idrib' in the Quran? Context! Ask any translator and they will tell you that context is all-important.

Thanks TC. I would have never thought of that.

Quote:

The hadeeth are used to understand the meaning and context of the verses of the Quran.

That's good to know also. Otherwise we would never know whether it means wife beating eh?

Quote:

What do we find in hadeeth in regards to this verse? The hadeeth tell us that the husband must not draw blood, must not cause swelling, must damage the skin.

Was this before or after he attempted to ban wife beating, then changed his mind? What does it actually say?

Quote:

This all was revealed in a world in which there was a free-for-all in men beating their wives to impunity.

It's odd then that Muhammed never clarified the obvious ambiguity hey?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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True Colours

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #263 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 10:37pm

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Are you suggesting that Muslims have mistranslated the word for a millenia?

I don't think that English translations have been around that long Freediver.

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

How do you make sense of the story of Muhammed forbidding wife beating...?

The prophet issued a civil decree banning any physical discipline of wives at all. That is probably a first in world history. It was not a matter of religion, but rather from the prophet's own personal preference on how people should behave. The prophet was overruled by God Almighty, who conditionally permitted something with 'idrib'.

WHat does 'idrib' mean? As I wrote earlier the best fitting definition is 'tap' - as in tapping keys on a keyboard or tapping someone on the shoulder or tapping a tambourine.

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

How do you make sense of the specific descriptions of wife beating, such as Muhammed's favourite wife describing the physical pain he caused her,

Freediver a tap on the chest does not constitute wife-beating - even if it happens to hurt. But I do not expect a liar like you to admit that.

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

or Muhammed's mates slapping her on the neck for being to annoying and everyone having a good laugh?

You are quite a dishonest fellow Freediver. I have checked the hadeeth in Saheeh Muslim. It literally says that the prophet's two father-in-laws - not his 'mates' - both poked their own daughters in the back of the neck. The term slapped is not actually used.

Furthermore, there is no mention of laughter.

I think your lies only expose the Islam-haters for what they are - dishonest.

Anyone who reads this should see that Freediver is dishonest.

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Tap that bitch.

Not only is Freediver dishonest but he is also a crude misogynist!

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Quote:

'Idrib' is the word used in Arabic for tapping on a tambourine, or even tapping the buttons on a keyboard or typewriter.

Is that from the koran, or hadiths?

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Quote:

'Idrib' is also the word used for tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention - or the chest as quoted previously by Freediver.

You mean this?

"He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

Yes.

Another mistranslation. It should read "He shoved me..."

THe Prophet had seen a strange person entering his house in the middle of the night and was relieved that it was just his wife.

Do you equate a shove to a beating Freediver?

freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm:

Quote:

How do we know that 'tap' is the best fitting definition of the word 'idrib' in the Quran? Context! Ask any translator and they will tell you that context is all-important.

Thanks TC. I would have never thought of that.

Add arrogant to the list of Freediver descriptors.

« Last Edit: Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:03pm by True Colours »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #264 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:10pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

Another mistranslation. It should read "He shoved me..."

THe Prophet had seen a strange person entering his house in the middle of the night and was relieved that it was just his wife.

You know the knuckleheads are desparate when they resort to this account as evidence of the prophet being a wife beater. The story as I understand it, is that the prophet was in bed with Aisha when, in the middle of the night, he was summoned by the angel Gabriel to pray at someone's grave. So he snuck out so as to not disturb Aisha. However Aisha was awoken, and secretly followed him to see what he was doing. When he came back, he noticed someone entering the house and initially didn't know who it was (as he didn't know she was following him). When he figured out who it was, he was understandably in a state - both by the initial thoughts of an intruder, as well as the realisation that Aisha had been out in the middle of the night, alone - at great risk to her life. The shove was as if to say "what were you thinking? What if something happened to you??" etc

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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True Colours Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2837 Gender:	Re: wife beating in Islam Reply #265 - Jul 28^th, 2013 at 11:46pm freediver wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 6:36pm: I can just imagine Muhammed the warmonger Says, ironically, a man living in a country whose government sends armies thousands of miles away to invade countries that never threatened them.
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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #266 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 12:26pm

Quote:

I don't think that English translations have been around that long Freediver.

So this issue never arose in translating it to other languages? What about Arab speaking Muslims? Have this misinterpreted the real meaning for 1400 years?

Quote:

So Muhammed banned men from tapping their wives on the shoulder, and God over-ruled him?

Quote:

Freediver a tap on the chest does not constitute wife-beating - even if it happens to hurt. But I do not expect a liar like you to admit that.

Are you attempting to redefine the meaning of the word 'tap'? Was the word whose translation you are quibbling over even used in this verse?

Quote:

Another mistranslation?

Jibreel wrote on Oct 13^th, 2010 at 6:45pm:

How about this one where Abu Bakr informs Muhammad he slapped Khadijah’s daughter, and he responds by laughing and allows the mother of believers to be hit by the companions?

Quote:

Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) came and sought permission to see Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). He found people sitting at his door and none amongst them had been granted permission, but it was granted to Abu Bakr and he went in. Then came 'Umar and he sought permission and it was granted to him, and he found Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) sitting sad and silent with his wives around him. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter ofKhadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (mav peace be upon him) laughed and said: They are around me as you see, asking for extra money. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) then got up went to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and slapped her on the neck, and 'Umar stood up before Hafsa and slapped her saying: You ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) which he does not possess. They said: By Allah, we do not ask Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) for anything he does not possess. Then he withdrew from them for a month or for twenty-nine days. Then this verse was revealed to him:" Prophet: Say to thy wives... for a mighty reward" (xxxiii. 28). He then went first to 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) and said: I want to propound something to you, 'A'isha, but wish no hasty reply before you consult your parents. She said: Messenger of Allah, what is that? He (the Holy Prophet) recited to her the verse, whereupon she said: Is it about you that I should consult my parents, Messenger of Allah? Nay, I choose Allah, His Messenger, and the Last Abode; but I ask you not to tell any of your wives what I have said He replied: Not one of them will ask me without my informing her. God did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy. (Sahih Muslim Book 009, Number 3506)

http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/009.smt.html#009.3506

And of course, I'm "full of it" and sahih narrations must be false when you don't like what they tell us.

Quote:

Furthermore, there is no mention of laughter.

Perhaps you have the wrong book. Would you mind providing the "alternative" translation?

Quote:

Another mistranslation. It should read "He shoved me..."

He shoved his wife, causing her pain. Not wife beating?

Quote:

THe Prophet had seen a strange person entering his house in the middle of the night and was relieved that it was just his wife.

He "shoved" her for leaving the house without his permission.

Quote:

Do you equate a shove to a beating Freediver?

If you shoved your wife, causing her pain, because she left the house without your permission, I would think there is something seriously wrong with you, and I would assume you are a wife beater. I would not mistake you for God's messenger on earth and an example for all people to follow. This is a description of common assault by your profit on his "favourite" wife because she did not properly fulfill the role of slave.

Gandalf:

Quote:

The shove was as if to say "what were you thinking? What if something happened to you??" etc

He beat his six year old wife for leaving the house without permission, because he cared so much for her. Have you ever considered becoming a lawyer for wife beaters?

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #267 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 2:07pm

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 12:26pm:

He beat his six year old wife for leaving the house without permission, because he cared so much for her

She was 6? I don't think so.

Apparently if I push someone, it counts as a "beating". Again, to use this sole example as evidence of Muhammad the wife beater is just so pathetic.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #268 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 6:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 2:07pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 29^th, 2013 at 12:26pm:

He beat his six year old wife for leaving the house without permission, because he cared so much for her

She was 6? I don't think so.

Apparently if I push someone, it counts as a "beating". Again, to use this sole example as evidence of Muhammad the wife beater is just so pathetic.

There is no need to invent some kind of conspiracy to explain what is going on here Gandalf. Even you conceded that the orthodox view from within Islam is that it permits wife beating. I have given you several examples and pointed out several logical flaws in your argument. The only evidence you have posted in favour of your alternative translation is that it is possible.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #269 - Jul 29^th, 2013 at 9:26pm

True Colours wrote on Jul 28^th, 2013 at 10:37pm:

So your god allows wife beating in this verse?

www.quran.com/4/34

This is my favourite verse-
www.quran.com/4/82

Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Question: SHould wife-smacking be allowed
Yes - always 0 (0.0%) Yes - if she burns the toast 0 (0.0%) Only if she is really naughty 1 (33.3%) Only if she likes it 1 (33.3%) No - never ever under any circumstances 1 (33.3%) Total votes: 3 « Created by: True Colours on: Jul 30^th, 2013 at 8:45pm »