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Question: SHould wife-smacking be allowed

Yes - always    
  0 (0.0%)
Yes - if she burns the toast    
  0 (0.0%)
Only if she is really naughty    
  1 (33.3%)
Only if she likes it    
  1 (33.3%)
No - never ever under any circumstances    
  1 (33.3%)




Total votes: 3
« Created by: True Colours on: Jul 30th, 2013 at 8:45pm »

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wife beating in Islam (Read 91448 times)
True Colours
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #285 - Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:11pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:02pm:
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

You lack credibility when you just start making things up Freediver.


The actual hadeeth does not say what are quoting. Perhaps I will type the whole thing out seeing as you won't allow me to upload the scan of the book.


Making this stuff really harms your credibility.

I would imagine that most people realise by now that Your Sustainability Party is really just an attempt to harm left-wing parties like the Greens.

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« Last Edit: Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:27pm by True Colours »  
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #286 - Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:19pm
 
freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:02pm:
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."


Thats right FD - that very same, single anecdote. The challenge for you is to find a few other anecdotes that would suggest a pattern of behaviour - so that your description of Muhammad the "bogan wife beater control freak" becomes something other than a complete and utter joke.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #287 - Jul 31st, 2013 at 1:03am
 
I have copied the translation from the most famous publisher of Islamic works into English of the relevant part of the hadeeth.

It demonstrates that there is no basis for Freediver's claim the prophet's wife needed permission to leave the house. The Prophet was merely in shock after seeing what he thought was an intruder entering his house in the dead of night, and taken aback by his wife spying on him. The Prophet even said that Aisha was supposed to go to the graveyard, so Freedivers theory about Aisha supposedly not being allowed out is totally debunked.

Freediver's other claims that Aisha was 6 years-old at the time is also shown to be false. The al-Baqi was not even built until 622 when Aisha was at least 10 years-old. It remained almost empty for a few years, Aisha would have been in her teens when the incident happened if not older.

Quote:
It was narrated that Muhammad bin Qais bin Makhramah bin Al-Muttalib said one day:

"...'A'isha said: Shall I not narrate to you from me and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)?" We said: "Yes." She said: "When it was my night while the Messenger of  Allah Messenger (may peace be upon him) was with me, he came in and took off his rida', took off his sandals and put them by his feet turned his side,  spread the edge of his waist  wrapper on his bed and lay down. He waited until he thought that I had gone to sleep. Then he slowly picked up his rida', slowly put on his sandals, opened the door slowly and went out, then he closed it slowly. I put my chemise over my head, and covered my head, and wrapped my waist wrapper around me, then I set out following him, until he reached al-Baqi' (the graveyard), where he stood for a long time, then he raised his hands three times. Then he set off, so I set off, then he hastened, so I hastened, then he jogged, so I jogged, then he ran so I ran, then I reached home before him and went in.

No sooner had I laid down but he came in and said: "What is the matter O Aish? Why are you out of breath?" I said "It is nothing." He said: "Either you tell me or the Subtle One, the All-Aware (God) will tell me." I said O Messenger of Allah, may my mother and father be sacrificed for you! (e.g. you are more beloved to me than my own parents [I would prefer to harm come to my parents before you])" And I told him. He said: "So you were the person that I saw in front of me?" I said: "Yes." He gave me a shove on the chest, then he said: "Did you think that Allah and His Messenger would be unjust to you?" I said: "Whatever the people conceal, Allah knows it; yes."

He said: "Jibril [Gabriel] came to me when you saw (me). He called me but he concealed it from you, and I answered him but I concealed it from you. He would not enter upon you when you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep and I did not want to wake you up, and I was afraid that you might be frightened." He (Gabriel said: "Your Lord is commanding you to go to the people of al-Baqi [the graveyard] and pray for forgiveness for them."

I said: "What shall I say them O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "Say: "As-salaamu 'ala ahlid-diyari min al-mu'mineen wal-muslimeen wa yarhamullahul-mustaqdimeen minna awl-mustakhireen, wa inna, in shaw Allahu bikum lalahiqoon. (Peace be upon the people of these abodes, believers and Muslims. May Allah have mercy on those of us who have gone on before and those who come later, and we will - if Allah wills - join you.)"

- Sahih Muslim, vol.2, Darussalam, Riyadh, 2007, pp. 505-6

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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #288 - Aug 1st, 2013 at 8:09pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:19pm:
freediver wrote on Jul 30th, 2013 at 10:02pm:
Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."


Thats right FD - that very same, single anecdote. The challenge for you is to find a few other anecdotes that would suggest a pattern of behaviour - so that your description of Muhammad the "bogan wife beater control freak" becomes something other than a complete and utter joke.


Sure Gandalf, here are a few more. It's not like I am surprising you with these. I have posted them already in this thread, fairly recently. There are a few posts worth, due to the character limit. I have also reposted them several times, at your request. How long do you want to keep this up?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1287305391/195

True Colours wrote on Jul 31st, 2013 at 1:03am:
I have copied the translation from the most famous publisher of Islamic works into English of the relevant part of the hadeeth.

It demonstrates that there is no basis for Freediver's claim the prophet's wife needed permission to leave the house. The Prophet was merely in shock after seeing what he thought was an intruder entering his house in the dead of night, and taken aback by his wife spying on him. The Prophet even said that Aisha was supposed to go to the graveyard, so Freedivers theory about Aisha supposedly not being allowed out is totally debunked.

Freediver's other claims that Aisha was 6 years-old at the time is also shown to be false. The al-Baqi was not even built until 622 when Aisha was at least 10 years-old. It remained almost empty for a few years, Aisha would have been in her teens when the incident happened if not older.

Quote:
It was narrated that Muhammad bin Qais bin Makhramah bin Al-Muttalib said one day:

"...'A'isha said: Shall I not narrate to you from me and the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him)?" We said: "Yes." She said: "When it was my night while the Messenger of  Allah Messenger (may peace be upon him) was with me, he came in and took off his rida', took off his sandals and put them by his feet turned his side,  spread the edge of his waist  wrapper on his bed and lay down. He waited until he thought that I had gone to sleep. Then he slowly picked up his rida', slowly put on his sandals, opened the door slowly and went out, then he closed it slowly. I put my chemise over my head, and covered my head, and wrapped my waist wrapper around me, then I set out following him, until he reached al-Baqi' (the graveyard), where he stood for a long time, then he raised his hands three times. Then he set off, so I set off, then he hastened, so I hastened, then he jogged, so I jogged, then he ran so I ran, then I reached home before him and went in.

No sooner had I laid down but he came in and said: "What is the matter O Aish? Why are you out of breath?" I said "It is nothing." He said: "Either you tell me or the Subtle One, the All-Aware (God) will tell me." I said O Messenger of Allah, may my mother and father be sacrificed for you! (e.g. you are more beloved to me than my own parents [I would prefer to harm come to my parents before you])" And I told him. He said: "So you were the person that I saw in front of me?" I said: "Yes." He gave me a shove on the chest, then he said: "Did you think that Allah and His Messenger would be unjust to you?" I said: "Whatever the people conceal, Allah knows it; yes."

He said: "Jibril [Gabriel] came to me when you saw (me). He called me but he concealed it from you, and I answered him but I concealed it from you. He would not enter upon you when you were not fully dressed. I thought that you had gone to sleep and I did not want to wake you up, and I was afraid that you might be frightened." He (Gabriel said: "Your Lord is commanding you to go to the people of al-Baqi [the graveyard] and pray for forgiveness for them."

I said: "What shall I say them O Messenger of Allah?" He said: "Say: "As-salaamu 'ala ahlid-diyari min al-mu'mineen wal-muslimeen wa yarhamullahul-mustaqdimeen minna awl-mustakhireen, wa inna, in shaw Allahu bikum lalahiqoon. (Peace be upon the people of these abodes, believers and Muslims. May Allah have mercy on those of us who have gone on before and those who come later, and we will - if Allah wills - join you.)"

- Sahih Muslim, vol.2, Darussalam, Riyadh, 2007, pp. 505-6



At first I thought you were silly for not just googling it, then copying and pasting. But then I tried googling it and could not find it either. If I google my version:

Muslim (4:2127) - Muhammad struck his favorite wife, Aisha, in the chest one evening when she left the house without his permission.  Aisha narrates, "He struck me on the chest which caused me pain."

I get about 25700 results.

When I google this:

He gave me a shove on the chest, then he said: "Did you think that Allah and His Messenger would be unjust to you?"

I get 2 results - the post you just made, and one other result with the matching text "then he said"

Call me a skeptic, but I think you are full of crap.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #289 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:30am
 
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 8:09pm:
Sure Gandalf, here are a few more. It's not like I am surprising you with these. I have posted them already in this thread, fairly recently. There are a few posts worth, due to the character limit. I have also reposted them several times, at your request. How long do you want to keep this up?


I'll keep this up until it gets through to you that none of those other anecdotes have anything to do with Muhammad beating any of his wives. That was the cotention remember? Not whether or not Muhammad condoned other men beating their wives.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #290 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:39am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:30am:
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 8:09pm:
Sure Gandalf, here are a few more. It's not like I am surprising you with these. I have posted them already in this thread, fairly recently. There are a few posts worth, due to the character limit. I have also reposted them several times, at your request. How long do you want to keep this up?


I'll keep this up until it gets through to you that none of those other anecdotes have anything to do with Muhammad beating any of his wives. That was the cotention remember? Not whether or not Muhammad condoned other men beating their wives.



you are appalling gandalf.
An excellent example of muslims.
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #291 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:44am
 
thanks sprint Smiley

Though you seem a bit confused. A while back you were giving me compliments. You are rather erratic.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:
Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #292 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:29pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:30am:
freediver wrote on Aug 1st, 2013 at 8:09pm:
Sure Gandalf, here are a few more. It's not like I am surprising you with these. I have posted them already in this thread, fairly recently. There are a few posts worth, due to the character limit. I have also reposted them several times, at your request. How long do you want to keep this up?


I'll keep this up until it gets through to you that none of those other anecdotes have anything to do with Muhammad beating any of his wives. That was the cotention remember? Not whether or not Muhammad condoned other men beating their wives.


So Muhammed laughing when other men also beat his wives does not contribute to the pattern of behaviour you demand?
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #293 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 3:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Aug 2nd, 2013 at 12:29pm:
So Muhammed laughing when other men also beat his wives does not contribute to the pattern of behaviour you demand?


Thats exactly right FD. And again the word is "lahada" - push.

Also, please get your stories straight. He didn't laugh as his wives were pushed (by their fathers). He laughed at the account of his daughter asking someone for money - as it turns out his wives had been asking for money also. And he didn't laugh when the two fathers pushed/slapped their daughters on the neck, he in fact became very sombre - as the hadith relates.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #294 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 3:24pm
 
Quote:
He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: I would say something which would make the Holy Prophet (may peace be upon him) laugh, so he said: Messenger of Allah, I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter ofKhadija when you asked me some money, and I got up and slapped her on her neck. Allah's Messenger (mav peace be upon him) laughed


Gandalf, how do you suppose the guy knew that Muhammed would laugh at this story?
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #295 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:08pm
 
I don't know FD. I have been trying to make sense of that narration - there is clearly some problems with the translation - eg: " I wish you had seen (the treatment meted out to) the daughter ofKhadija when you asked me some money"

"when you asked me some money" - makes no sense either syntactically or semantically. Why does he say "you" when he is obviously not referring to who is talking to (The Prophet)?

My very uneducated guess on this is that the joke is not the punishment, the joke is the request for money. Which makes sense given The Prophet is clearly laughing in the context of his wives *ALSO* asking for money.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #296 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 4:27pm
 
Western men are educated and respectable so think smacking women is wrong? Right?

Ooops. Not even his own wife:

SA woman claims magistrate smacked her


A man has told a tribunal of his wife crying uncontrollably, throwing up and collapsing after telling him her magistrate boss had smacked her on the bottom with a file...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/2013/07/29/13/36/sa-wife-told-of-magistrate-s-smack
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #297 - Aug 2nd, 2013 at 5:21pm
 
Quote:
My very uneducated guess on this is that the joke is not the punishment, the joke is the request for money. Which makes sense given The Prophet is clearly laughing in the context of his wives *ALSO* asking for money.


I see.

"I beat your daughter, but you will love my reason for doing so, ha ha ha".

Or is it more like "Hey Muhammed, the other day while i was beating on your daughter something funny happened..."

?
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #298 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 8:24am
 
FD I just finished pointing out that there is clearly a problem in translation in that hadith.

"when you asked me some money" - is both grammatically incorrect and makes no sense in that context - ie who is "you"? If that part has been badly translated, then I don't think we can put much worth in the rest of it.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: wife beating in Islam
Reply #299 - Aug 5th, 2013 at 10:26am
 
The whole mistranslation thing is starting to sound like a broken record.

Is it just with wife beating that this claim of mistranslation is so common?
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