Australian Politics Forum - ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power

Please delete

Gold Member

Offline

Please delete this smacking
PROFILE

Posts: 2936

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #255 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:01pm

"All major businesses get tax concessions"

The experience in the USA is that these things can't get started without huge, upfront subsidies.

I am still to hear anyone argue where private enterprise is going to find the capital to build these things in Australia, let alone the equipment and expertise.

25 NPPs at a conservative $5B each (more likely $10B or more) is anywhere between $125B and $300B.

Where are they going to get the capital??

Back to top

IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #256 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:05pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:01pm:

"All major businesses get tax concessions"

The experience in the USA is that these things can't get started without huge, upfront subsidies.

I am still to hear anyone argue where private enterprise is going to find the capital to build these things in Australia, let alone the equipment and expertise.

25 NPPs at a conservative $5B each (more likely $10B or more) is anywhere between $125B and $300B.

Where are they going to get the capital??

Probably the same way all other big business does....Loans from either local or overseas finance groups...

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #257 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:10pm It's all just a political pipe dream. Bankrupt the country so you can thumb your noses at greenies.
Back to top	IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #258 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:26pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:10pm:

It's all just a political pipe dream. Bankrupt the country so you can thumb your noses at greenies.

How is it going to bankrupt the country if private enterprise is paying for it???

Oh and on the costs you posted earlier for the Florida plant, 2x 1.1gigawatt reactors for AU$9.3 billion.....

A 57megawatt PV power plant that will supply 10,000 homes would cost about AU$454 million to build and require 75ha of land

A 22 megawatt solar thermal trough power plant would cost AU$141million and need 120 ha of land...

1.1 gigawatt = 1100 megawatts..so you'd need 50 thermal trough plants to equal one nuclear plant

$141million x 50 = $7.05billion
1.1 gigawatt nuclear =$4.65billion (2 plants for AU$9.3billion

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #259 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:43pm Who pays for it? WE DO! The companies aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts! We'll pay directly and indirectly. We don't have the expertise, and prices of nuclear are rising, whereas the costs of PV and thermals are dropping. Can you please provide a link to your costings for solar?
Back to top	IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #260 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:46pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:43pm:

Who pays for it? WE DO! The companies aren't going to do it out of the goodness of their hearts! We'll pay directly and indirectly.

We don't have the expertise, and prices of nuclear are rising, whereas the costs of PV and thermals are dropping.

Can you please provide a link to your costings for solar?

Sure. It's a couple of years old though..

http://www.environment.act.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/154054/Solar_Power...

Yes, but no company is going to build solar or wind power plants out of the 'goodness of their hearts' either.....
And we'd still pay, directly and indirectly, for renewables too...

Expertise is importable....Hire the engineers from overseas to build the first reactor, and train OUR own people...then we can build the other ourselves....

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #261 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:48pm Thanks, I'll read it later.
Back to top	IP Logged

gizmo_2655 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 16010 South West NSW Gender:	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #262 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:52pm Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 2:48pm: Thanks, I'll read it later. The costings are in the Executive Summary...page 8/100 Pretty much the first page after the index..
Back to top	"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition. It's similar to a strawman fallacy" Bobbythebat IP Logged

Please delete

Gold Member

Offline

Please delete this smacking
PROFILE

Posts: 2936

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #263 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:10pm

"Expertise is importable....Hire the engineers from overseas to build the first reactor, and train OUR own people...then we can build the other ourselves.... "

It doesn't work like that.

For a start the furnaces are produced in the USA or Russia or Japan - that's all. They're VERY special bits of gear.

And I doubt VERY much that you can train a legion of nuclear techs by building one reactor.

Back to top

IP Logged

Please delete

Gold Member

Offline

Please delete this smacking
PROFILE

Posts: 2936

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #264 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:14pm

"Japan Steel is the only company in the world “capable of producing the central part of a nuclear reactor’s containment vessel in a single piece, reducing the risk of a radiation leak,” but it can only produce four per year. Even if Japan Steel increases its capacity, American power companies would be buying components in a global market at a time when China and India are increasing their nuclear capacity to meet growing energy needs."

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2008/07/nuclear_energy.html

Back to top

IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #265 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:17pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:10pm:

"Expertise is importable....Hire the engineers from overseas to build the first reactor, and train OUR own people...then we can build the other ourselves.... "

It doesn't work like that.

For a start the furnaces are produced in the USA or Russia or Japan - that's all. They're VERY special bits of gear.

And I doubt VERY much that you can train a legion of nuclear techs by building one reactor.

So buy the equipment from overseas...How is that different from buying fridges from China and washing machies from NZ??

The skills to RUN a reactor can be learned at any Australian university....it's fairly simple, when the red light goes on, push THIS button.....the engineering skills to build one can be taught by 5 visiting specialists to 5 local specialist quite easily....the grunt work of construction isn't that different whether it's a nuclear plant or a coal plant or a solar plant....

Welding doesn't really change from job to job, neither does pouring concrete, running wiring or installing computers...

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

Please delete Gold Member Offline Please delete this smacking PROFILE Posts: 2936	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #266 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:20pm And that's how the Lucas Heights small reactor progressed? Not a chance. I think you are oversimplifying. I mean, as I said earlier, we don't build anything here - what makes you think we could build something as complicated as a NPP, even with someone showing us how?
Back to top	IP Logged

Miss Anne Dryst Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2296 Sydney Gender:	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #267 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 4:35pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 12:37pm: wikipedia = "bloke down the pub said" LOL And still no link. Although has suggested a twin nuclear being $8b, but no link for a singular being $10b
Back to top	It's hard to soar like an eagle when conversing with turkeys IP Logged

gizmo_2655

Gold Member

Offline

Australian Politics

Posts: 16010
South West NSW
Gender: male

Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #268 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 5:07pm

Please delete wrote on Dec 7^th, 2010 at 3:20pm:

And that's how the Lucas Heights small reactor progressed? Not a chance.

I think you are oversimplifying. I mean, as I said earlier, we don't build anything here - what makes you think we could build something as complicated as a NPP, even with someone showing us how?

No Lucas Heights was entirely Australian built, but it's pretty old technology, so we might need some advice on the lastest and greatest designs..

After all, Lucas Heights was built in 1958 and was first run at full power in 1960, so she's a pretty old girl..And the secondary reactor came online in 2007 as a medical research reactor....so we'll need some help building a power reactor..

Back to top

"I just get sick of people who place a label on someone else with their own definition.

It's similar to a strawman fallacy"
Bobbythebat

IP Logged

mozzaok Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 6741 Melbourne Gender:	Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power Reply #269 - Dec 7^th, 2010 at 5:35pm We have abundant natural gas, all over australia, we could convert all our base load power to gas far more quickly, and far more inexpensively, than with nuclear. Nuclear makes no sense in a country with so much natural gas that we sell it to california for 3 cents a litre.
Back to top	OOPS!!! My Karma, ran over your Dogma! IP Logged

Poll
Question: NUCLEAR POLL (choose ALL options that apply): -
I support Nuclear Power in OZ 100% I support a Nuke plant in MY backyard I support a Nuke plant in YOUR backyard I'm not sure if I support Nukes in OZ Nukes will cause mass Darwin Awards Nukes: a short term solution & long term problem No way, no Nukes for OZ - never! The LibLabs must stop sabotaging renewables « Last Modified by: Equitist on: Dec 1^st, 2010 at 9:15am »