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Question: NUCLEAR POLL (choose ALL options that apply): -



« Last Modified by: Equitist on: Dec 1st, 2010 at 9:15am »

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ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power (Read 20550 times)
Miss Anne Dryst
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #285 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 9:07pm
 
Miss Anne Dryst wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 8:05pm:
mozzaok wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 7:42pm:
Miss Anne Dryst wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 5:46pm:
mozzaok wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 5:35pm:
We have abundant natural gas, all over australia, we could convert all our base load power to gas far more quickly, and far more inexpensively, than with nuclear.

Nuclear makes no sense in a country with so much natural gas that we sell it to california for 3 cents a litre.




It may make no sense, but that is what the Greens and the ALP are forcing upon Australia. An alternative to the ultra cheap coal energy.

And the BEST alternative to coal is nuclear.

Are you really that stupid, or is this deliberate obtuseness some charade you play just to annoy people?

I just told you we already have abundant Natural Gas, that is far, far cleaner than any coal powered generation, about 60 odd percent cleaner from memory, that we can utilise far more quickly, and far more cheaply, than any Nuclear option.

What is difficult to comprehend about that?




So you claim that the natural gas is cheaper than coal.
Do you have a link to that or are we merely meant to accept your ignorant comment?




The energy options are in order or costs:
1) Coal (Cheapest)
2) Nuclear
3) Wind
4) Solar (Dearest)

Gas isn't even on the radar
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mozzaok
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #286 - Dec 7th, 2010 at 9:24pm
 
You really are clueless.
Natural Gas is a local product, where sitting on heaps of it, and it's price has been dropping.
Nuclear however has been getting dearer, and dearer, and the most likely probability is that by the time we actually could get a nuclear plant producing, solar will actually be far cheaper than it.
Solar has halved in cost over the last twenty years, while nuclear has doubled, and the trends show no sign of changing.

Natural Gas went through a price spike a few years ago, but has dropped considerably since 2007, as well we have to take into consideration that the guys are building these power plants right on top of massive Gas Fields, so there is no great shipping and storage costs added on, like there is if you were providing Liquid Natural Gas to companies overseas to then utilise for power production.

The long and the short of it is that on any criteria you look at it, Nuclear is a bad option for Australia.
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gizmo_2655
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #287 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 7:09am
 
mozzaok wrote on Dec 7th, 2010 at 9:24pm:
The long and the short of it is that on any criteria you look at it, Nuclear is a bad option for Australia.


How about the criteria of fuel consumption??

Nuclear uses a lot less fuel to generate each megawatt than natural gas does...
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #288 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 7:37am
 
Gizmo

If your extrapolations of that report for the ACT are valid, and I am a little sceptical, to whit:

"larger plant size would significantly improve the economics by spreading the infrastructure costs over a larger productive plant and capturing economies of scale of the production plant itself. For example, doubling the plant to 44 MW would lower electricity cost by about 25%;"

And if it turns out that building a 1GW solar plant costs the same as 1GW NPP, which do you build?

One that, once built, has only maintenance, without further inputs or harmful outputs?

Or one that requires a mining industry, a refining process (which we currently don't have) and produces a terrible waste product, for which there is currently no solution?

Do you build the systems that need to be on our waterways, or the one that can be anywhere the land is cheap, and the power infrastructure already exists or can be economically installed?
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« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2010 at 8:19am by Please delete »  
 
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Andrei.Hicks
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #289 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 10:29am
 
You'd have to ask yourself why Australia remains so behind the play on nuclear power.

We have been running on emissions free nuclear power, accident free in Britain for decades.

Not as if Australia is a tin-pot third world nation is it?

The arguments on here against it are just so insular.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #290 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 10:35am
 
Andrei.Hicks wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 10:29am:
You'd have to ask yourself why Australia remains so behind the play on nuclear power.

We have been running on emissions free nuclear power, accident free in Britain for decades.
Not as if Australia is a tin-pot third world nation is it?

The arguments on here against it are just so insular.


So why has Britain decided not to build any more NP stations?



No reactors have been built since the 1980s, due to:

concerns about accidents
spiralling decommissioning costs
the problem of nuclear waste


http://www.slideshare.net/tudorgeog/nuclear-power-stations-in-britain-presentati...
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #291 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 12:44pm
 
I've lost count how many times I've voted in the poll in this thread.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #292 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 12:50pm
 
mantra wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 10:35am:
So why has Britain decided not to build any more NP stations?

]


Actually love the Government has decided to build new nuclear power plants.

Good news.   Smiley

Also the new Cameron Government is a strong supporter of nuclear power as well.....



The government has approved 10 sites in England and Wales for new nuclear power stations, most of them in locations where there are already plants.

It has rejected only one proposed site - in Dungeness, Kent - as being unsuitable on environmental grounds.

A new planning commission will make decisions on the proposals "within a year" of receiving them, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband told MPs.

Nuclear was a "proven and reliable" energy source, he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/8349715.stm
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #293 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 2:38pm
 
Quote:
The government has approved 10 sites in England and Wales for new nuclear power stations, most of them in locations where there are already plants.

It has rejected only one proposed site - in Dungeness, Kent - as being unsuitable on environmental grounds.

A new planning commission will make decisions on the proposals "within a year" of receiving them, Energy Secretary Ed Miliband told MPs.

Nuclear was a "proven and reliable" energy source, he said.


Your news article is a year old. My information on the reintroduction of reactors wasn't up to date either.

The plants haven't been built yet and the number of potential sites have been reduced. There appears to be a lot of controversy at present over these proposed plans and there will be no public money - a huge disincentive to the nuclear industry.

The GFC has affected the bottom line of the budget - so these "proposed" reactors will have to be privately funded.


September 27, 2010

The nuclear debate is a political hot potato within the coalition as Conservative members are in favour of a new generation of nuclear plants, whilst the Lib Dems have traditionally opposed such a view.

A government spokesman said: "We are keen to ensure that operators of new nuclear power stations meet in full their waste management, waste disposal and decommissioning costs."



Will the nuclear industry be prepared to do this at their own expense? It will be years before they receive dividends from their investment and the billions of pounds needed to begin building in Britain's poor economic climate is quite risky.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #294 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:34pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 7:37am:
Gizmo

If your extrapolations of that report for the ACT are valid, and I am a little sceptical, to whit:

"larger plant size would significantly improve the economics by spreading the infrastructure costs over a larger productive plant and capturing economies of scale of the production plant itself. For example, doubling the plant to 44 MW would lower electricity cost by about 25%;"

And if it turns out that building a 1GW solar plant costs the same as 1GW NPP, which do you build?

One that, once built, has only maintenance, without further inputs or harmful outputs?

Or one that requires a mining industry, a refining process (which we currently don't have) and produces a terrible waste product, for which there is currently no solution?

Do you build the systems that need to be on our waterways, or the one that can be anywhere the land is cheap, and the power infrastructure already exists or can be economically installed?


Yes I see your point....but since a solar plants Mw value is size dependant, doubling the Mw means doubling the physical area needed..
The 22Mw Solar/Thermal plant requirse 120ha, doubling it to 44Mw would mean 240Ha......where as a 1.1 Gw plant is the same physical size as a 500Mw plant, only the internal structure is different...
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #295 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:41pm
 
"The 22Mw Solar/Thermal plant requirse 120ha, doubling it to 44Mw would mean 240Ha......where as a 1.1 Gw plant is the same physical size as a 500Mw plant, only the internal structure is different... "

The cost of land undoubtedly contributes to the high cost of Solar/Thermal.

One of the advantages is that the plants can be closer to rural and regional users, whilst still feeding the cities.

I can see that MY preference has problems - but they are problems Australians can solve, without buying offshore, without necessarily employing highly paid experts from O/S.

And it would be damned interesting AND FEASIBLE to solve this problem ourselves.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #296 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:44pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:41pm:
"The 22Mw Solar/Thermal plant requirse 120ha, doubling it to 44Mw would mean 240Ha......where as a 1.1 Gw plant is the same physical size as a 500Mw plant, only the internal structure is different... "

The cost of land undoubtedly contributes to the high cost of Solar/Thermal.

One of the advantages is that the plants can be closer to rural and regional users, whilst still feeding the cities.

I can see that MY preference has problems - but they are problems Australians can solve, without buying offshore, without necessarily employing highly paid experts from O/S.

And it would be damned interesting AND FEASIBLE to solve this problem ourselves.


But doesn't Solar Thermal still use steam turbines to generate electricity??

I know PV uses direct conversion, but as far as I know, Solar Thermal generates heat to convert water to steam for turbines..
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #297 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:46pm
 
It's a closed system - once the turbine is "full" it justs cycles between steam and water.
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #298 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:48pm
 
Please delete wrote on Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:46pm:
It's a closed system - once the turbine is "full" it justs cycles between steam and water.


And the same system is used by nuclear power...the heat from the fission reaction heats the water to steam etc...
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Re: ALP flip flop on Nuclear Power
Reply #299 - Dec 8th, 2010 at 3:48pm
 
Whereas NPPs (from what I remember) use water to cool the chamber, then flush the heated water into a river or whatever.

It needs LOTS of water.
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