Australian Politics Forum - Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.

gizmo_2655

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #60 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 4:36pm

hawil wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 7:34pm:

Perhaps a solution would be to get rid of public operated schools entirely and have the govt pay the $10,000 per student directly to a private education body to proved no-fee education. It would provide a higher standard of education for no extra cost.

Thoughts?

Very interesting idea; and maybe it would work.
The private schooling is much more utilised in english speaking countries, and the english speaking citizens are also very reluctant to pay taxes, as are the Greeks and look where it got that couintry.
That the private enterprise can built roads and other infrastructure better is, because they can use the whip a lot harder than it is done in government works.In one case the worker is driven to ever increased effort and the safety is at times sacrificed, in government works some workers think they do not have to do anything except pick up their pay every so often.Read a joke about two workers in the former USSR, says Boris to Ivan, it really puzzles me that we have been stealing from the government for the last 40 years, and there is still something left to be stolen.

I'd disagree with idea that 'private enterprise' can build and maintain roads better.....in my experience (around where I live at least) I don't consider road re-surfacing that produces potholes within 10 days to be 'better'.....

When the RTA or council did the repair work, it used to last at least 6 months before pot holes appeared...

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48921 At my desk.	Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools. Reply #61 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 4:39pm Quote: legislation banning the Government from using surpluses to pay down debt for instance WTF?
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longweekend58

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Re: private school threads
Reply #62 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:24pm

gizmo_2655 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 2:51pm:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 1:55pm:

freediver wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 12:54pm:

Quote:

State schools must be the government's priority in education.

ABSOLUTELY! the notion of putting the children's education FIRST seems to slip the minds of the ideologically bound. and thats even before you consider the costs of changing our priorities and if it wil even work!

Ahh longy, you must also consider the idea that if the Governments STOPPED funding 'private' schools, they'd have a whole lot more money to improve equipment, buildings and teacher quality at public schools..

I mean lets face it, the Catholic Church (for example) has more than enough money to independantly fund their schools in Australia, they seem to manage in every other country, as do all the other religious and indpendant schools...

And the fees that private schools charge should be more than enough to pay for quality education for the students

That is wrong on so many levels plus chronically naive. aLL YOU WOULD DO IS SEND A FLOOD Of students from the private sector back to public schools where the govt ourl have to pay 50% MORE per student than currently.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #63 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:28pm

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 6:23pm:

salad in wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 6:59am:

Quote:

1963 Election

In 1963 PM Robert Menzies took the step of providing State Aid (government funding) for independent schools. In Goulburn NSW in 1962 Catholic schools had shut their doors for a week - and dumped their kids on the State school system - to protest against a lack of government funding (State Aid as it was called). While Menzies funded independent schools (and won over many Catholic voters) Labor wrestled with the issue and resisted State Aid. This is the story of that strike and the 1963 election.

http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1213157.htm

It's simple: the state school system wouldn't be able to cope.

SILLY old arguement, that one

It could be EQUALLY argued that if the Federal Government didn't

bankroll the so-called "private" system

there would be a lot more funding available to a more

egalitarian, universal education model

It could be 'argued', but only a fool would support it. it is nonsensical, uneconomic and totally opposed to actual real-world experience. IE a PERFECT Greens policy!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #64 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:31pm

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 7:49pm:

Quote:

Perhaps a solution would be to get rid of public operated schools entirely and have the govt pay the $10,000 per student directly to a private education body to proved no-fee education.

I suspect the standards would drop. At the moment only not-for-profit groups run schools - ie governments and churches, and a few other groups. I would hate for us to end up like the US, with coke vending machines in the classrooms as part of a sponsorship deal.

So let's make it a non-profit organisation then. Im just saying that the govt-run education system is systemically screwed and cant be 'fixed'. only a new group with zero ties to the old system could rebuild a free education system without the hopeless ideologically-bound structure that exists now.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #65 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:33pm

Andrei.Hicks wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 11:27am:

freediver wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 7:59am:

[quote]
I agree with you there. They should pay for these roads by raising fuel taxes, not with tolls. .

You already pay over 50c per litre in petrol tax whilst I pay 12c.

As a result your cost of petrol is 50c more per litre than me.

You don't think you are already ripped off?
You want people in Australia to PAY MORE??????????

What next? A carbon tax to pay more for the same services of energy??
Grin

You are also $14T in debt or per head nearly TEN TIMES what the average aussie is.

Our petrol prices are fine thank you very much.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mozzaok

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #66 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:46pm

Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

OK Longy, you are big on providing figures, you claim to be facts, so please reference this claimed "FACT".

I hope I do not have to once again highlight your lack of integrity, when adding "personal beliefs" labelled as facts, and for once you actually substantiate one of your claims.

The figures quoted on the sites I have looked at state the figure to be between 2K to 10 K for Catholic Secondary schools, so perhaps you are just making up your own 'Facts" to suit your argument, as everyone here has already seen to be your pattern.

Over to you, pants on fire.

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hawil

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #67 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 6:17pm

'd disagree with idea that 'private enterprise' can build and maintain roads better.....in my experience (around where I live at least) I don't consider road re-surfacing that produces potholes within 10 days to be 'better'.....

When the RTA or council did the repair work, it used to last at least 6 months before pot holes appeared...

gizmo you may be right, but working for many years in a government department I have seen too much bludging to be efficient.
If the government workers would be prepared to put a decent days work for a decent wage then the government system would definitely be superior because it would not have to create large profits for the private industry.

You are at least not in the same mould as longweekend, who sees everything in dollar terms for the elite in this world.

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #68 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 8:48pm

mozzaok wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

OK Longy, you are big on providing figures, you claim to be facts, so please reference this claimed "FACT".

I hope I do not have to once again highlight your lack of integrity, when adding "personal beliefs" labelled as facts, and for once you actually substantiate one of your claims.

The figures quoted on the sites I have looked at state the figure to be between 2K to 10 K for Catholic Secondary schools, so perhaps you are just making up your own 'Facts" to suit your argument, as everyone here has already seen to be your pattern.

Over to you, pants on fire.

well for starters I actually SENT kids to a low fee school with fees of under $8000 for 4 kids. and the fees i paid were typical of many lower fee private schools. Catholic schools are similar in price and there would be VERY few $10K catholic schools and then not one of the more typical low-fee schools.

But what exactly is your point? You hate private schools. we get it. so how about you actually construct a credible argument for your position rather than simply attack everyone elses. The basic experience is that private schools generate better outcomes at a lower cost the the govt than would otherwise be. do u understand now why the govt supports private schools???

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #69 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 8:50pm

hawil wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 6:17pm:

'd disagree with idea that 'private enterprise' can build and maintain roads better.....in my experience (around where I live at least) I don't consider road re-surfacing that produces potholes within 10 days to be 'better'.....

When the RTA or council did the repair work, it used to last at least 6 months before pot holes appeared...

gizmo you may be right, but working for many years in a government department I have seen too much bludging to be efficient.
If the government workers would be prepared to put a decent days work for a decent wage then the government system would definitely be superior because it would not have to create large profits for the private industry.

You are at least not in the same mould as longweekend, who sees everything in dollar terms for the elite in this world.

you sound like some kind of jealous envious left-wing unemployed yobbo. I dont have the opinions you claim I have. I do however understand that EVERYTHING in life has to be paid for by someone. You still have along way to go to understand that!

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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freediver

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #70 - Jan 9^th, 2011 at 9:46pm

Quote:

So let's make it a non-profit organisation then.

We already have them.

Quote:

Im just saying that the govt-run education system is systemically screwed and cant be 'fixed'. only a new group with zero ties to the old system could rebuild a free education system without the hopeless ideologically-bound structure that exists now.

I think you would find the same problems reappearing. If you can't fix the problems with the current system, what makes you think throwing it all away and restarting will get you something better?

Quote:

If the government workers would be prepared to put a decent days work for a decent wage

Ah, but you'd have to pay them a decent wage for that to happen. So already taxes are going up.

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #71 - Jan 10^th, 2011 at 8:06am

Quote:

Im just saying that the govt-run education system is systemically screwed and cant be 'fixed'. only a new group with zero ties to the old system could rebuild a free education system without the hopeless ideologically-bound structure that exists now.

I think you would find the same problems reappearing. If you can't fix the problems with the current system, what makes you think throwing it all away and restarting will get you something better?

Private schools have ALREADY shown how to make it work. All I'm saying is to extend the concept with the government paying its $10,000 to a non-profit run school with no additional fees. That is essentially privatising the public school system. It costs the govt no more than currently while greatly improving the outcomes and comparable to the outcomes of low-fee private schools now.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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mozzaok

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #72 - Jan 10^th, 2011 at 10:30am

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 8:48pm:

mozzaok wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

OK Longy, you are big on providing figures, you claim to be facts, so please reference this claimed "FACT".

I hope I do not have to once again highlight your lack of integrity, when adding "personal beliefs" labelled as facts, and for once you actually substantiate one of your claims.

The figures quoted on the sites I have looked at state the figure to be between 2K to 10 K for Catholic Secondary schools, so perhaps you are just making up your own 'Facts" to suit your argument, as everyone here has already seen to be your pattern.

Over to you, pants on fire.

well for starters I actually SENT kids to a low fee school with fees of under $8000 for 4 kids. and the fees i paid were typical of many lower fee private schools. Catholic schools are similar in price and there would be VERY few $10K catholic schools and then not one of the more typical low-fee schools.

But what exactly is your point? You hate private schools. we get it. so how about you actually construct a credible argument for your position rather than simply attack everyone elses. The basic experience is that private schools generate better outcomes at a lower cost the the govt than would otherwise be. do u understand now why the govt supports private schools???

So are you saying you have no actual valid reference for your claimed "FACT"?
Are you admitting that once again you are just making up lies to suit your argument?

MY POINT IS, reference where you got the information that you provided, and stated was a fact.
Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

A single example of what you paid to one school, at one time, in the past, does not validate your false statement about the average cost of "MOST" private schools, so admit you just made up the facts you wanted to suit your argument, or provide a reference to show where you obtained these facts if you wish to claim you did not just invent these facts, as you do with so many others you cite..

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longweekend58

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #73 - Jan 10^th, 2011 at 11:15am

mozzaok wrote on Jan 10^th, 2011 at 10:30am:

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 8:48pm:

mozzaok wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:46pm:

Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

OK Longy, you are big on providing figures, you claim to be facts, so please reference this claimed "FACT".

I hope I do not have to once again highlight your lack of integrity, when adding "personal beliefs" labelled as facts, and for once you actually substantiate one of your claims.

The figures quoted on the sites I have looked at state the figure to be between 2K to 10 K for Catholic Secondary schools, so perhaps you are just making up your own 'Facts" to suit your argument, as everyone here has already seen to be your pattern.

Over to you, pants on fire.

well for starters I actually SENT kids to a low fee school with fees of under $8000 for 4 kids. and the fees i paid were typical of many lower fee private schools. Catholic schools are similar in price and there would be VERY few $10K catholic schools and then not one of the more typical low-fee schools.

But what exactly is your point? You hate private schools. we get it. so how about you actually construct a credible argument for your position rather than simply attack everyone elses. The basic experience is that private schools generate better outcomes at a lower cost the the govt than would otherwise be. do u understand now why the govt supports private schools???

So are you saying you have no actual valid reference for your claimed "FACT"?
Are you admitting that once again you are just making up lies to suit your argument?

MY POINT IS, reference where you got the information that you provided, and stated was a fact.
Quote:

FACT: most private schools are Catholic or low fee private schools with fees of $2000pa or less.

-Longweekend

A single example of what you paid to one school, at one time, in the past, does not validate your false statement about the average cost of "MOST" private schools, so admit you just made up the facts you wanted to suit your argument, or provide a reference to show where you obtained these facts if you wish to claim you did not just invent these facts, as you do with so many others you cite..

When this argument was raised in parliament there was a media report that also made the claim that the vast majority of private schools were low fee ones. you can choose to believe otherwise if you choose. But everyone who actually puts kids in private schools has checked around and the fees structure is predominatly the low to medium range. there are in fact very few ultra-high fee elite private schools.

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Sir lastnail

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Re: Why Should The Public Fund Private Schools.
Reply #74 - Jan 10^th, 2011 at 1:07pm

longweekend58 wrote on Jan 9^th, 2011 at 5:28pm:

buzzanddidj wrote on Jan 8^th, 2011 at 6:23pm:

salad in wrote on Jan 7^th, 2011 at 6:59am:

Quote:

1963 Election

In 1963 PM Robert Menzies took the step of providing State Aid (government funding) for independent schools. In Goulburn NSW in 1962 Catholic schools had shut their doors for a week - and dumped their kids on the State school system - to protest against a lack of government funding (State Aid as it was called). While Menzies funded independent schools (and won over many Catholic voters) Labor wrestled with the issue and resisted State Aid. This is the story of that strike and the 1963 election.

http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Transcripts/s1213157.htm

It's simple: the state school system wouldn't be able to cope.

SILLY old arguement, that one

It could be EQUALLY argued that if the Federal Government didn't

bankroll the so-called "private" system

there would be a lot more funding available to a more

egalitarian, universal education model

It could be 'argued', but only a fool would support it. it is nonsensical, uneconomic and totally opposed to actual real-world experience. IE a PERFECT Greens policy!

It's typical of you to defend the channeling of tax payers money into the pockets of corrupt religious institutions who run these schools.

Schools should be run by the Government. That's what we all pay taxes for. There is no need for fancy swimming pools and tennis courts at any school and nor should the Government be paying for it.

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